Jump Ball - Movement Prior to Touch

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

I haven't found an instruction to ask for the "speaking captain(s)," only the duty to conduct the coach/captain meeting, in 2.1 A Referee's Duties 10. of the Officials Manual.

Rule 2-7-1

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Why put "legally" in parentheses? It's always legal to move away from the circle. It's never illegal to move away form the circle.

I was under the impression that moving away from the circle into an occupied space would be illegal. Am I reading this wrong?

ART. 5 Until the tossed ball is touched by one or both jumpers, nonjumpers
shall not:
a. Have either foot break the plane of the center restraining circle cylinder.
b. Take a position in any occupied space.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

I was under the impression that moving away from the circle into an occupied space would be illegal.

That statement doesn't make sense to me.

If you are moving away from the circle, you can't be moving into an occupied spaced.

If you are moving into an occupied space, you are either moving onto the circle or around the circle.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

I was under the impression that moving away from the circle into an occupied space would be illegal. Am I reading this wrong?

Yes you are. It is only illegal to move into an occupied space on the circle. Players can move as near to players off the circle as they want, short of contact. Spin it any way that you want, but a player is not holding his spot when he moves away from the circle.

Also. I'm not questioning your knowledge of this rule. It sounds like you understand this rule better than me, or many other officials. I'm questioning why you would instruct players to do something that is not factually correct. Sometimes it's better just to keep your mouth shut.

One good outcome of this discussion: I haven't "dissected" this rule in this manner since the institution of the alternating possession arrow. Like many officials, I figure that we're probably only going to have one jump ball a game, hopefully it will go well, if not, I hope that it's an obvious violation that's easy to call, if not, I hope that it's a subtle violation that nobody will care about, so I spend my time studying other parts of the rule book. Back when we had a dozen jump balls a game (dozens in a middle school girls game), I knew all the jump ball rules like the back of my hand. Thanks for giving me the incentive to review these rules in great detail.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

NFHS Officials Manual, 2.2 PUTTING THE BALL IN PLAY 2.2.2 C End Line 5. states ; "When the clock is stopped, use the proper verbal and visual signal to indicate whether a spot throw-in or running the end line privileges are in effect." - Signal 26 = Spot Throw-in, Signal 23 = Run End Line.

Thanks Rob1968. The IAABO Mechanics Manual pretty much says the same thing, just not as well (typical of the IAABO Manual). It's not on my hard drive, please don't make me type it (keyboard it?) out.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

"Who's the speaking captain". Wait? I'm being told that that's an actual rule. Never mind.

Originally Posted by Rob1968

I haven't found an instruction to ask for the "speaking captain(s),".

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Rule 2-7-1

2-7-1: The officials shall conduct the game in accordance with the rules. This includes: Notifying the captains when play is about to begin at the start of the
game.

3-1-1: Each team consists of five players, one of whom is the captain.

Rob1968: My reference to, "Who's the speaking captain", was actually done tongue in cheek. I was trying to get a "rise" out of some veteran Forum members. Some Forum members have disagreed about this "mechanic". Some will take the rule quite literally, that there is only one captain, and since they have to notify this one captain at the start of the game, and since almost all varsity teams have more than one captain come to the pregame coaches and captains meeting, they will ask for that one "speaking" captain in the pregame meeting. Some will actually go as far as asking if that "speaking" captain is starting, and, if not, ask for a "substitute speaking" captain that is starting. I guess that it would be unprofessional to just yell over to the captain sitting on the bench to notify him?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Players can move as near to players off the circle as you want, short of contact.

Here's another one of my pet peeves: I've heard officials tell players, who are standing six feet off the jump ball circle, "You can't stand behind him". Stupid monkeys. Sometime it's better to just keep one's mouth shut. Remember, in regard to revealing one's ignorance, you can't quote silence.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Here's another one of my pet peeves: I've heard officials tell players, who are standing six feet off the jump ball circle, "You can't stand behind him". Stupid monkeys. Sometime it's better to just keep one's mouth shut. Remember, in regard to revealing one's ignorance, you can't quote silence.

I posted something a few months back about officials doing this and folks said they hadn't seen it. I'm glad I'm not as nutty as I thought.

Recently I've started asking partners why the do this...then we go look at the rule book together.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Here's another one of my pet peeves: I've heard officials tell players, who are standing six feet off the jump ball circle, "You can't stand behind him". Stupid monkeys. Sometime it's better to just keep one's mouth shut. Remember, in regard to revealing one's ignorance, you can't quote silence.

Can't say I have ever heard that one. If I were to hear that in a game, I would defiantly ask at half time why they felt the need to say something like that.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

I'm glad I'm not as nutty as I thought.

Oh, some of us have seen officials say this, but that still doesn't not make you nutty. After all. You appear to be a fan of both the Mets, and the Jets. Nutty? You have to be. No question in my mind.

[Travelling Man]

I agree: Fortunately, there is only one jump ball per game for officials at our level on this forum of whom are 99.9% non-NBA refs (in contrast there are numerous jump ball situations at the nba level thus distinctly circumspect provisions inhere). And by custom, I've observed that 99.9% of HS players just get a spot around the jump circle and hold still for the 2 seconds it takes to determine the jumpball. And, that 99.9% of nfhs officials just say "hold your spots"--and the pain will be over in 2 seconds.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Travelling Man

I agree: Fortunately, there is only one jump ball per game for officials at our level on this forum of whom are 99.9% non-NBA refs (in contrast there are numerous jump ball situations at the nba level thus distinctly circumspect provisions inhere). And by custom, I've observed that 99.9% of HS players just get a spot around the jump circle and hold still for the 2 seconds it takes to determine the jumpball. And, that 99.9% of nfhs officials just say "hold your spots"--and the pain will be over in 2 seconds.

The percentage of NFHS officials who say this is nowhere near 99.9%. It might be close to 9%, but even that would surprise me. This is the same as those who move everyone behind half court for technical foul free throws. No one thinks twice about it, but it's still wrong.

Like back pedaling. You'll be fine until you aren't.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

Like back pedaling. You'll be fine until you aren't.

You'll Be Fine Until You Aren't © 2013 Adam

Adam: Now you can start raking in the licensing revenue. And when you become a zillionaire, don't forget your old Forum buddy, BillyMac.

[Travelling Man]

Originally Posted by Adam

The percentage of NFHS officials who say this is nowhere near 99.9%. It might be close to 9%, but even that would surprise me. This is the same as those who move everyone behind half court for technical foul free throws. No one thinks twice about it, but it's still wrong.

Like back pedaling. You'll be fine until you aren't.

*No, it is not like "back-pedaling". Backpedaling is something officials do to "themselves"; whereas arranging players for the jump ball and admonishing them to "be still" is something that officials do to "others".

You've under-estimated the number of nfhs officials who instruct players to "not move" during the initial jump ball--as evidenced by the mere fact that this issue /thread was started by an nfhs official indicates that even amongst this self-selected group of specialists there exists considerable variation in the practice of this esoteric issue. Perhaps you yourself comprise that 0.1% wh allow players to move about during the initial jump ball. But as I said, this is really an esoteric issue in officiating--there are other more pressing concerns [no pun intended].

[Rob1968]

Originally Posted by Travelling Man

*No, it is not like "back-pedaling". Backpedaling is something officials do to "themselves"; whereas arranging players for the jump ball and admonishing them to "be still" is something that officials do to "others".

You've under-estimated the number of nfhs officials who instruct players to "not move" during the initial jump ball--as evidenced by the mere fact that this issue /thread was started by an nfhs official indicates that even amongst this self-selected group of specialists there exists considerable variation in the practice of this esoteric issue. Perhaps you yourself comprise that 0.1% wh allow players to move about during the initial jump ball. But as I said, this is really an esoteric issue in officiating--there are other more pressing concerns [no pun intended].

The "esoteric" characterization of this issue becomes moot when one reads the NFHS Officials Manual, 2.2.1 B and notes the adsence of any direction to give such instruction to the players, and/or one's Assignor/Evaluator gives instruction/direction to do otherwise.