Officiating 101 - Pregame Positioning - 2 person

[Adam]

Originally Posted by REFANDUMP

In our area, we go to the table at around the 12 minute mark. That enables us to remind coaches we need the book at the table by 10 or make any book corrections before 10. We want to try to avoid book technicals if we can, and technically it is a technical if these errors are corrected after the 10 minute mark (although, I know very few officals would assess a technical here).

If the teams have supplied the correct information to the scorer, and they transcribe it incorrectly, I'm not charging a technical foul for the corrections.

Ever.

I know some areas have the coaches proofread the book and sign off on it, and there is some rules justification for calling the T any time you make a change after 10:00. I think the spirit of the rule is clear, though, in that the intent is not to punish a team for a scorekeeper's clerical error.

[BillyMac]

"The umpire should move to the midcourt line" (1:40)

The midcourt line has been extinct for a couple of decades. It's the division line.

[dvboa]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

"The umpire should move to the midcourt line" (1:40)

The midcourt line has been extinct for a couple of decades. It's the division line.

Good catch as well. Revisions are on the way...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by dvboa

Good catch as well. Revisions are on the way...

Don't encourage me. It's a nit. It really didn't have to be picked. Everyone doesn't have obsessive compulsive disorder, just a few of us, and we should often just be ignored.

[REFANDUMP]

I guess I see what you are saying, but I see no advantage to doing it that way instead of waiting to check the official book. I do see an advantage to making sure the official book is correct, and avoiding a potential delay if there is a clerical error which could have been corrected before the start of play. Granted, if a number is transferred wrong, it wouldn't have mattered when it was done as we only count player numbers instead of comparing each players number to what is in the book. To each their own, I guess.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by REFANDUMP

I guess I see what you are saying, but I see no advantage to doing it that way instead of waiting to check the official book. I do see an advantage to making sure the official book is correct, and avoiding a potential delay if there is a clerical error which could have been corrected before the start of play. Granted, if a number is transferred wrong, it wouldn't have mattered when it was done as we only count player numbers instead of comparing each players number to what is in the book. To each their own, I guess.

All officials want to do is make sure the information has been submitted. You can always comply with the rule without a T after it is in the book.

If you do not see the purpose that is fine, but that is why it is done that way by many. There is no penalty if the information was properly given. And it could matter if a number is wrong if the official scorer tells you they gave you the wrong number was put in the book. At least you can go back and review in a dispute of the information. But there are other issues than numbers and names. That is why I ask the coach to verify the information so that they can catch any problem.

The bottom line, we do not want to give an unwarranted T.

Peace

[REFANDUMP]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

All officials want to do is make sure the information has been submitted. You can always comply with the rule without a T after it is in the book.

If you do not see the purpose that is fine, but that is why it is done that way by many. There is no penalty if the information was properly given. And it could matter if a number is wrong if the official scorer tells you they gave you the wrong number was put in the book. At least you can go back and review in a dispute of the information. But there are other issues than numbers and names. That is why I ask the coach to verify the information so that they can catch any problem.

The bottom line, we do not want to give an unwarranted T.

Peace

On that, we're in agreement. Book T's aren't good. Especially avoidable ones. I'll admit that I don't have the coaches sign the book, but many officials I work with do. I may have to consider doing that this upcoming season.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by REFANDUMP

I guess I see what you are saying, but I see no advantage to doing it that way instead of waiting to check the official book. I do see an advantage to making sure the official book is correct, and avoiding a potential delay if there is a clerical error which could have been corrected before the start of play. Granted, if a number is transferred wrong, it wouldn't have mattered when it was done as we only count player numbers instead of comparing each players number to what is in the book. To each their own, I guess.

I'm confused. How detailed are you checking the book? What T are you going to catch that I'm going to miss?

The only advantage is the fact that there's really no reason to look in the book if it's completed after the 10:00 mark.

[REFANDUMP]

Originally Posted by Adam

I'm confused. How detailed are you checking the book? What T are you going to catch that I'm going to miss?

The only advantage is the fact that there's really no reason to look in the book if it's completed after the 10:00 mark.

I'm not going to catch any "T"'s that you'd miss, but I would prevent a potential game stoppage if there was an error on transferring information. For example, a submitted roster has 12 players but the official book only writes down 11 players. 12th player comes into the game, horn sounds because this player isn't in the book and we have to deal with making the correction. I would have matched the official book to the players on the floor and this stoppage would not have occured. I'll admit these situations would be rare, and honestly don't think it's a big deal. I will still say however, that I don't see any advantage to not checking the official book instead of the submitted rosters.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Adam

If the teams have supplied the correct information to the scorer, and they transcribe it incorrectly, I'm not charging a technical foul for the corrections.

Ever.

I know some areas have the coaches proofread the book and sign off on it, and there is some rules justification for calling the T any time you make a change after 10:00. I think the spirit of the rule is clear, though, in that the intent is not to punish a team for a scorekeeper's clerical error.

Same here. I had that come up in an NYC borough championship game in '11-12. I only mention the level of the contest because the league printed flyers with the rosters and the scorekeeper used the flyer to put names/numbers in the book. Unfortunately, the league left a player off of the flyer. We were alerted and the R ruled no T since the kid couldn't have gotten into the gym if he hadn't been on the roster lsited on the league's web site.

A pregame count didn't catch it because the team in question only had nine players and there were 12 in the book.

[REFANDUMP]

Ok, just want to make sure I understand what some of you are thinking. You're telling me you go over to the scorers table and ask the scorer if a team has submitted a roster with starters from each team and that's it. The roster shows 2 no. 33's or a no. 7 or 6 players noted at starters (for example). Are you telling me you are going to be ok with issuing a technical when any of these players come onto the floor because you haven't checked the book, but have only checked to confirm that the scorer has recieved a roster !!!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by REFANDUMP

Ok, just want to make sure I understand what some of you are thinking. You're telling me you go over to the scorers table and ask the scorer if a team has submitted a roster with starters from each team and that's it. The roster shows 2 no. 33's or a no. 7 or 6 players noted at starters (for example). Are you telling me you are going to be ok with issuing a technical when any of these players come onto the floor because you haven't checked the book, but have only checked to confirm that the scorer has recieved a roster !!!

I look to verify two things.

1. There are no duplicate numbers.
2. There are at least as many names in the book as players warming up for each team.

If the information isn't in the book yet, but has only been supplied, there's not much to verify. If, after that, we have to change something in the book, whether I call a T or not will depend on whether the the wrong information in the book matches what was supplied by the team.

If the source information was wrong, then I'm perfectly ok with calling the T.

[REFANDUMP]

I understand what you're saying, but in my opinion that "T" is avoidable, and I prefer to keep it that way.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by REFANDUMP

I understand what you're saying, but in my opinion that "T" is avoidable, and I prefer to keep it that way.

What T? What else are you looking for?

[REFANDUMP]

Maybe I misunderstood what some of you are saying. What I'm now reading is that you're not checking the official book, but am checking the rosters given to the scorekeepers. Is this correct, and if so why not wait and do your checking after the information is entered in the official book, so you can avoid a delay if there is an error in transferring the information ?