travel violations

[upprdeck]

had an interesting discussion about traveling in AAU games this weekend with one set of refs. one team was continually establishing a pivot foot doing multiple jab steps then starting their drives off in the other direction with the pivot foot leaving the flloor before letting go the ball. After what seemed like the 20th such play and being that AAU you practically sit on the floor in most of these areanas I asked the ref as he was running by why it wasnt a travel. I coach, but not this team, so I am used to talking with refs and trying to understand the rules better, but i was given a snide remark from the ref, which is not unusual given the amount of grief i know they get. A bit later in the game a kid was setting up down low on two feet so no pivot established. he jumped off both feet in a whirl move turned the corner for a layup and again said something to the ref as he went by about use of the pivot feet and got another nasty remark about not knowing the rules.

after the game being a bit put off by the ref's tone went over discuss the plays with them to see if i was interpreting them incorrectly. was told by both ref's I didn't know what i was talking about and they called the tournament director who i had a nice conversation with and explained what I had seen. they wanted me tossed, but as i wasn't coaching this weekend just observing the director agreed with what i was saying and was going to have a conversation with the ref's after the following game. not sure how it turned out as i had to leave soon after. but still made for a fun few moments.

in any case arent both of these clear travels ?

[Raymond]

Lifting you pivot foot prior to releasing the ball for a dribble is travelling.

Your post play description was too vague.

Whether the calls were missed or not, as a fan, you shouldn't be engaging officials during games. And when a game is over you shouldn't be addressing officials period, as a fan or coach.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Whether the calls were missed or not, as a fan, you shouldn't be engaging officials during games. And when a game is over you shouldn't be addressing officials period, as a fan or coach.

I'm going to give this guy the benefit of the doubt, BNR. He appears to be looking to learn, not be a smart-ass.

I agree, though, the second description is too vague. "He jumped off both feet in a whirl move..." then what?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I'm going to give this guy the benefit of the doubt, BNR. He appears to be looking to learn, not be a smart-ass.

I agree, though, the second description is too vague. "He jumped off both feet in a whirl move..." then what?

I don't think he's being a smart-a$$ at all, he has legitimate questions. But my opinion about engaging officials applies to all.

Nice or not, I don't want fans trying to engage me about plays while I'm officiating. I when I leave the court I don't anybody, fan/player/coach, approaching me about a game I officiated.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I don't think he's being a smart-a$$ at all, he has legitimate questions. But my opinion about engaging officials applies to all.

Nice or not, I don't want fans trying to engage me about plays while I'm officiating. I when I leave the court I don't anybody, fan/player/coach, approaching me about a game I officiated.

+1000

Peace

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I don't think he's being a smart-a$$ at all, he has legitimate questions. But my opinion about engaging officials applies to all.

Nice or not, I don't want fans trying to engage me about plays while I'm officiating. I when I leave the court I don't anybody, fan/player/coach, approaching me about a game I officiated.

I would respectfully disagree here. In game, or loudly in public I totally agree, but if someone wants to approach me politely and quietly after a game because they are trying to understand a rule, I think that's great. Too many fans/coaches think they know the rules and make no effort to correctly understand them. To dismiss those who do want to correctly understand them, in my opinion, does a disservice to other officials by fueling the stereotype that officials are arrogant and full of themselves.

My response to a spectator with a legitimate question after the game would be similar to my response to a coach during the game - short and polite. For example, "I don't remember that play in particular, but if it happened as you describe it, you would be correct". Or "If it happened like that, you would be correct, but I saw the play differently."

[Adam]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

I would respectfully disagree here. In game, or loudly in public I totally agree, but if someone wants to approach me politely and quietly after a game because they are trying to understand a rule, I think that's great. Too many fans/coaches think they know the rules and make no effort to correctly understand them. To dismiss those who do want to correctly understand them, in my opinion, does a disservice to other officials by fueling the stereotype that officials are arrogant and full of themselves.

My response to a spectator with a legitimate question after the game would be similar to my response to a coach during the game - short and polite. For example, "I don't remember that play in particular, but if it happened as you describe it, you would be correct". Or "If it happened like that, you would be correct, but I saw the play differently."

The problem is one of hope vs. experience. As Bob noted, 99% of the time, the intent isn't to learn but to berate (even subtly). To avoid the 99%, we lose out on the 1%. I'm ok with that.

I've been known to engage some fans, but my radar is up, and I wouldn't recommend it to officials without significant experience reading fans.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

...My response to a spectator with a legitimate question after the game would be similar to my response to a coach during the game - short and polite. For example, "I don't remember that play in particular, but if it happened as you describe it, you would be correct". Or "If it happened like that, you would be correct, but I saw the play differently."

I'm on my own time after the game is over. As I stated in another post, the preponderance of these converstations are not pleasant. And since I'm on my own time I choose not to engage in these conversations. Adam puts it perfectly:

Originally Posted by Adam

The problem is one of hope vs. experience. As Bob noted, 99% of the time, the intent isn't to learn but to berate (even subtly). To avoid the 99%, we lose out on the 1%. I'm ok with that.

I've been known to engage some fans, but my radar is up, and I wouldn't recommend it to officials without significant experience reading fans.

A fan is more likely to get a basketball conversation out of me if they happen upon me at a sports bar or restaurant.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

My response to a spectator with a legitimate question after the game would be similar to my response to a coach during the game - short and polite. For example, "I don't remember that play in particular, but if it happened as you describe it, you would be correct". Or "If it happened like that, you would be correct, but I saw the play differently."

The big problem with this is that you don't ever really know if the spectator has "a legitimate question" and is trying to learn ... or if he is going to blow up when you tell him you saw it differently. (Especially a fan, as in the OP, who has already been so vocal that I had to notice him during the game!)

[pfan1981]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Whether the calls were missed or not, as a fan, you shouldn't be engaging officials during games. And when a game is over you shouldn't be addressing officials period, as a fan or coach.

+1 +1 +1. Post on this forum to get clarification, never engage officials during or after a game.

[upprdeck]

a player with both feet on the floor jumps off both feet and whirls to the basket around the defender and then dribbles before coming back to the floor.

so when do you address officials to have discussions about plays? its not like there is a place to have the discussion about rules with any officials you will ever see again.

as a coach there is nothing worse than watching rules mistakes with ref/umpires never get corrected. In a local league you have a small chance of getting local coordinator to have a discussion . no chance in AAU type settings where most teams never go back.

If you are at a game and watch a rule get blown do you choose to say nothing or inquire after the game?

I ask on these boards to get clarity. how do refs fix their mistakes if noone every asks them? you can ask in a friendly tone , shouldnt the refs want to get better as well? I have had some great conversations with refs/umpires about rules over the years during and after games. Had some even say thanks for reminding them when the mess up a call. it doesnt have to by a non-civil conversation.

[ballgame99]

I'm guessing if they wanted you tossed you weren't politely inquiring why that wasn't a travel. If you seriously want to have a conversation with the refs, approach them in between games and say 'hey guys, help me out here, I have a question for you'.

Better yet, take some video and post it here

[bob jenkins]

99% of the time, fans who "ask questions" as you did from the front row aren't really asking to learn. You might be the exception, but you're going to be treated like the 99%.

[upprdeck]

thats exactly what i did. i waited until game over, they were on break. the two teams had left. my words were something like. Can I ask you for clarification on what a travel is with the pivot foot. I got the look that you get from someone who thinks they know more than you, but they said sure. I showed them the footwork i was asking about , they agreed it was a travel. one ref left to get the official and the other gave some snotty attitude and several snide remarks.

I have more connections to umpires than basketball

My only remarks during the actual game were while ref was about a foot away during a break "Blue thats a travel he already established a pivot foot".

hey its AAU there are hundreds a parents screaming about most every call and usually because one team is playing big city/street g-town type ball and the other is playing small town less aggressive and getting blown away.

but refs dont have to be rude to make up for the crowd?

[Adam]

1. If you're making enough of a nuisance to get my attention in an AAU game, you risk getting tossed.
2. A site director who refused to toss you for any reason wouldn't be getting officials from my association for long. Especially if his reason is, "the fan had a point." In this case, I'm probably tossing you for approaching me after the game combined with making a nuisance of yourself during the game.
3. If the first thing I hear is a polite approach between games, I'll engage. I'll tell you what I saw, but I'm not getting into a discussion, though. I'll tell you what I saw and what the rule is, but that's all.
4. Your description is of traveling, but the refs may have seen it differently.