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Old Thu Feb 28, 2013, 01:52pm
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Two Violations in One

Interesting scenario that our UIC presented in a NFHS rules clinic last night, and wanted to share with y'all.

R1 at third, R2 at first. F1 commits a double-touch, and PU gives the DDB signal while verbalizing "Illegal Pitch." F1 then starts her motion to deliver the ball. Before she releases the ball, R2 leaves the base early. BU sees the violation and calls, "No Pitch! Runner at first left too soon and is Out!"

What is the result of the situation?
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Old Thu Feb 28, 2013, 02:19pm
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I seem to remember this being covered a year or two ago but I cant find it at the moment.

My recollection is you enforce both infractions. R2 is out for leaving early, the batter is awarded a ball, R1 is awarded home.
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Old Thu Feb 28, 2013, 02:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKBUmp View Post
I seem to remember this being covered a year or two ago but I cant find it at the moment.

My recollection is you enforce both infractions. R2 is out for leaving early, the batter is awarded a ball, R1 is awarded home.
Your recollection is spot-on.
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Old Thu Feb 28, 2013, 02:41pm
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What if there were two outs? Does R1's run score?
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Old Thu Feb 28, 2013, 03:00pm
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For some reason I remember the answer being yes run scores. Reason was you enforce the penalties in the order that they happened. IP was first so it is enforced first, then runner leaving early is enforced. But can't seem to find the interp to reference.
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Old Thu Feb 28, 2013, 05:42pm
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An exception to the rule is when the pitcher commits and illegal pitch that induces the runner to leave early. For example, the pitcher can't make three revolutions before releasing the ball, causing the runner to leave at the point where the pitcher would be required to release the ball in order to comply with the revolution guidelines.

If the pitcher makes 3 revolutions and the runner leaves at 2 1/2, enforce the illegal pitch only and warn the pitcher.
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Old Fri Mar 01, 2013, 02:34pm
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This one is straight out of the case book...

8.6.21 SITUATION:

With R1 on third base and R2 on first base, F1 double touches for an illegal pitch. The plate umpire calls an illegal pitch but before the hands separate to deliver the ball, R2 leaves first base on her way to second base. The base umpire calls "dead ball" and calls R2 out.

RULING: R2 is out for leaving first base before F1 released the ball. The illegal pitch is enforced which results in a "ball" awarded to B3 and one base (home) to R1. (6-1-2)



Quote:
Originally Posted by EsqUmp View Post
An exception to the rule is when the pitcher commits and (sic) illegal pitch that induces the runner to leave early.
Where is this "exception" documented in NFHS rules?

Last edited by BretMan; Fri Mar 01, 2013 at 02:54pm.
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Old Fri Mar 01, 2013, 03:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BretMan View Post
This one is straight out of the case book...

8.6.21 SITUATION:

With R1 on third base and R2 on first base, F1 double touches for an illegal pitch. The plate umpire calls an illegal pitch but before the hands separate to deliver the ball, R2 leaves first base on her way to second base. The base umpire calls "dead ball" and calls R2 out.

RULING: R2 is out for leaving first base before F1 released the ball. The illegal pitch is enforced which results in a "ball" awarded to B3 and one base (home) to R1. (6-1-2)
Aaah, our instructor mentioned it was out of the case book. But, silly me, I looked for it under Rule 6.

Obviously, the call of "dead ball" on the LBE violation is not correct.
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Old Fri Mar 01, 2013, 03:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BretMan View Post
Where is this "exception" documented in NFHS rules?
I don't remember this being in the rules, but rather as a memorandum.

Obviously you aren't going to call a runner out who leave the base early if they left BECAUSE of the illegal pitch.
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Old Fri Mar 01, 2013, 03:52pm
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Honestly, this ruling has ALWAYS struck me as odd, despite the case play.

Let me walk you through why.

What's the penalty for an illegal pitch? Specifically, in a play where the pitch is thrown and additional action happens (like, for example, R1 thrown out stealing 2nd, or batter hitting a fly out)
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Old Fri Mar 01, 2013, 10:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BretMan View Post
Where is this "exception" documented in NFHS rules?
Don't enforce the penalty when the team who offended is benefited from its enforcement. In my proposed play, the defense induced the offense into a violation by creating an illegal pitch. You don't reward the defense for violating the rules and causing a secondary infraction.

Rules + Common Sense = You don't call the runner out
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Old Sat Mar 02, 2013, 12:11am
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On the case play cited, no double touch I ever saw induced a runner to leave early. Enforce exactly like the case book suggests. This isn't a common sense ruling.

The exception is when the illegal pitch actually causes or induces the runner to leave early. The obvious example is if the pitcher holds on to the ball after passing the hip and makes a 2nd full revolution, or simply never delivers the pitch. Runners that time the release that never happened shouldn't be penalized for the violation clearly caused by the defense's illegal action.

But this case play has NOTHING to do with that type of situation. Don't overthink when lead down the wrong path.
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Old Sat Mar 02, 2013, 08:35am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
Honestly, this ruling has ALWAYS struck me as odd, despite the case play.

Let me walk you through why.

What's the penalty for an illegal pitch? Specifically, in a play where the pitch is thrown and additional action happens (like, for example, R1 thrown out stealing 2nd, or batter hitting a fly out)
In your examples, the runner or batter did nothing illegal. I would ask what you would do after an illegal pitch is delivered and an offensive player subsequently violates a rule, such as interferes with a fielder fielding the batted ball. Do you enforce both violations then?
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Old Sat Mar 02, 2013, 09:12am
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Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve View Post

But this case play has NOTHING to do with that type of situation. Don't overthink when lead down the wrong path.
I wrote an exception to the rule application and gave a specific example. Read correctly so you aren't lead down the wrong path.
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Old Mon Mar 04, 2013, 10:38am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A View Post

Obviously, the call of "dead ball" on the LBE violation is not correct.
Why? In HS play this is a dead ball.....
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