travel violations

[upprdeck]

I wish the places I have seen AAU games actually had someone watching the games. There is a reason so many college coaches are pushing for changes in how games are officiated , when coaches like Patino come out and say commit 10 fouls because only 2 will be called there is something wrong with the game. AUU is worse because some teams have 6-7 players and others having 10-12 they just cant play that style and survive.

I have never been an AAU game where anyone was over seeing any of the officiating going on. I have been at many college/HS events where was over site. much easier to be a baseball ump with 5-6 plays a game that require some thought as opposed to basketball that has multiple events on one trip down court.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by upprdeck

I wish the places I have seen AAU games actually had someone watching the games. There is a reason so many college coaches are pushing for changes in how games are officiated , when coaches like Patino come out and say commit 10 fouls because only 2 will be called there is something wrong with the game. AUU is worse because some teams have 6-7 players and others having 10-12 they just cant play that style and survive.

I have never been an AAU game where anyone was over seeing any of the officiating going on. I have been at many college/HS events where was over site. much easier to be a baseball ump with 5-6 plays a game that require some thought as opposed to basketball that has multiple events on one trip down court.

Don't read too much into it. That guy that BNR is talking about is mainly there as a buffer, someone to let people vent. 99% of what he's told gets put into the round file.

The complaints you had would have been filed that way, IMO.

The only people I'll listen to about my officiating would never be making comments during the game like that.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by upprdeck

Is the lack of discussion just because there is so much negativity at these events? I mean the amount of screaming at the refs amazes me at these things. Every call seems to get a yell. I tend to only question

AAU vs HS are called in a totally different way from my discussions with ref's who are actually friendly. Rules violations are not to be called. rough play is allowed and only marginally dangerous fouls will be called because the schedule must be kept. I have been flat told out by ref's there will be home cooking bias against out of town teams. Now in HS I think its more caused by crowd energy than any real bias but in AAU that seems to much more prevalent.

when you see the same violation 20-30 times in a game you do have to wonder why its never called.

Some officials just refuse to call a travel unless it is so grossly obvious that it looks like a running play in football.

As for rough play, unfortunately, you get refs of the mentality that they just want to cash a check and get home. Their games turn into a brawl and they blame it on the players/coaches. It isn't about keeping it on schedule, it is about being lazy. If the directors want proper games and are worried about schedule, they'll schedule differently or change the length of the games if they are getting behind.

Home cooking...not in any game I'm on. I don't care where a team is from, I only see plays. But, it could happen.

[upprdeck]

I get the same sense. many are at the AUU events to make the $3-400 and go home. I have seen some take the time to explain to kids what they are doing wrong and thats great to see. These things should be about making kids better since almost none of them will go anywhere after high school . So much of it is just about making money now its sad.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by upprdeck

... I have seen some take the time to explain to kids what they are doing wrong and thats great to see....

That's really the coaches' and parents' job, especially if we're talking about AAU competition.

Originally Posted by upprdeck

These things should be about making kids better since almost none of them will go anywhere after high school . So much of it is just about making money now its sad. ....

I'm leaving my wife and my own kids at home to go officiate for a reason, and if I'm not in camp, it is #1 about making $$$. Once I'm on the court the players and coaches are going to get the best that I can give. But you will never, ever hear me say "I'm doing it for the kids".

I may do a specific event pro bono (as I did for the local Air Force base recently) but I did not get into officiate "for the kids". I got into it to may myself some $$$.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by upprdeck

I get the same sense. many are at the AUU events to make the $3-400 and go home. I have seen some take the time to explain to kids what they are doing wrong and thats great to see. These things should be about making kids better since almost none of them will go anywhere after high school . So much of it is just about making money now its sad.

I'm with BNR, I'm not there to teach the kids. I'm there to provide a venue for coaches to do that. Younger levels, I might offer a few things during a game, but for the most part, I'm not coaching.

If I wanted to coach, I'd coach.

And frankly, Camron didn't note it, but if you wanted higher quality officiating, you'd have to pay more for it. With what AAU refs typically get paid, they have to do more games to make it worth their time and travel. Pay them more, and you'll get higher quality officials working fewer games each.

With what I get paid for summer ball, I'm just not in the mood to put up with much from fans or even coaches, frankly. It's not that I'm going to call a technical for conduct I'd put up with in high school; I'm just going to deal with it less patiently. I'm less inclined to warn coaches for borderline behavior. I'd rather spend my energy watching the players.

And fans in a 6th grade game are going to get less rope than they would in a high school game.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I don't think he's being a smart-a$$ at all, he has legitimate questions. But my opinion about engaging officials applies to all.

Nice or not, I don't want fans trying to engage me about plays while I'm officiating. I when I leave the court I don't anybody, fan/player/coach, approaching me about a game I officiated.

I would respectfully disagree here. In game, or loudly in public I totally agree, but if someone wants to approach me politely and quietly after a game because they are trying to understand a rule, I think that's great. Too many fans/coaches think they know the rules and make no effort to correctly understand them. To dismiss those who do want to correctly understand them, in my opinion, does a disservice to other officials by fueling the stereotype that officials are arrogant and full of themselves.

My response to a spectator with a legitimate question after the game would be similar to my response to a coach during the game - short and polite. For example, "I don't remember that play in particular, but if it happened as you describe it, you would be correct". Or "If it happened like that, you would be correct, but I saw the play differently."

[Adam]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

I would respectfully disagree here. In game, or loudly in public I totally agree, but if someone wants to approach me politely and quietly after a game because they are trying to understand a rule, I think that's great. Too many fans/coaches think they know the rules and make no effort to correctly understand them. To dismiss those who do want to correctly understand them, in my opinion, does a disservice to other officials by fueling the stereotype that officials are arrogant and full of themselves.

My response to a spectator with a legitimate question after the game would be similar to my response to a coach during the game - short and polite. For example, "I don't remember that play in particular, but if it happened as you describe it, you would be correct". Or "If it happened like that, you would be correct, but I saw the play differently."

The problem is one of hope vs. experience. As Bob noted, 99% of the time, the intent isn't to learn but to berate (even subtly). To avoid the 99%, we lose out on the 1%. I'm ok with that.

I've been known to engage some fans, but my radar is up, and I wouldn't recommend it to officials without significant experience reading fans.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

...My response to a spectator with a legitimate question after the game would be similar to my response to a coach during the game - short and polite. For example, "I don't remember that play in particular, but if it happened as you describe it, you would be correct". Or "If it happened like that, you would be correct, but I saw the play differently."

I'm on my own time after the game is over. As I stated in another post, the preponderance of these converstations are not pleasant. And since I'm on my own time I choose not to engage in these conversations. Adam puts it perfectly:

Originally Posted by Adam

The problem is one of hope vs. experience. As Bob noted, 99% of the time, the intent isn't to learn but to berate (even subtly). To avoid the 99%, we lose out on the 1%. I'm ok with that.

I've been known to engage some fans, but my radar is up, and I wouldn't recommend it to officials without significant experience reading fans.

A fan is more likely to get a basketball conversation out of me if they happen upon me at a sports bar or restaurant.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by upprdeck

I wish the places I have seen AAU games actually had someone watching the games. There is a reason so many college coaches are pushing for changes in how games are officiated , when coaches like Patino come out and say commit 10 fouls because only 2 will be called there is something wrong with the game. AUU is worse because some teams have 6-7 players and others having 10-12 they just cant play that style and survive.

I have never been an AAU game where anyone was over seeing any of the officiating going on. I have been at many college/HS events where was over site. much easier to be a baseball ump with 5-6 plays a game that require some thought as opposed to basketball that has multiple events on one trip down court.

Well then you have not been paying attention or you were not aware that there was someone over officiating. For one many officiating camps are run with AAU games, so there obviously are evaluators and a camp director for that particular camp or tournament. Then again the officials in many of those situations are not necessarily new or inexperienced, they are just there to prove they can work a certain level. And every AAU Tournament I have worked has someone that assigned them and usually that is someone that has an officiating background. Of course things could be differnet in different parts of the country.

Most of the time when there is an AAU Tournament it is usually assigned with whomever they can get to work the games. And in my experience many experienced or top officials will not waste their time with AAU for the very reason you came here. Paying them $25 a game for the headache is not worth it. And after a couple of weeks, it certainly is not worth it to me anymore.

Peace

[7IronRef]

Originally Posted by Adam

1. If you're making enough of a nuisance to get my attention in an AAU game, you risk getting tossed.
2. A site director who refused to toss you for any reason wouldn't be getting officials from my association for long. Especially if his reason is, "the fan had a point." In this case, I'm probably tossing you for approaching me after the game combined with making a nuisance of yourself during the game.
3. If the first thing I hear is a polite approach between games, I'll engage. I'll tell you what I saw, but I'm not getting into a discussion, though. I'll tell you what I saw and what the rule is, but that's all.
4. Your description is of traveling, but the refs may have seen it differently.

Wow!

I don't participate in many conversations any more, but I like reading what everyone has to say.

Adam, you seem knowledgeable and reasonable most of the time, maybe I am not reading you correctly.

IF the OP made the comment in the way he actually stated during the game, it is on the official to stay professional and not engage fans. Just because someone makes a comment or asks a question does not mean that an official needs to pay attention to it. I would hardly call the initial comment as a nuisance.

Even in the AAU setting, just how are you going to eject someone without the backing of the gym supervisor. It is rare that these individuals will eject unless vulgar or confrontational in nature.

While I don't see a problem with trying to educate someone, once you open the door for a conversation, be professional. If a person does not want to accept your explanation, just end the conversation and move away. There are enough bad examples out there, don't become another one.

Lastly, you never know who you are talking to, what their intentions are by starting a conversation, they might even have someone filming you for their youtube page.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by upprdeck

I get the same sense. many are at the AUU events to make the $3-400 and go home. I have seen some take the time to explain to kids what they are doing wrong and thats great to see. These things should be about making kids better since almost none of them will go anywhere after high school . So much of it is just about making money now its sad.

Just out of curiousity ... do you do your regular job for the money? Or do you do it for the enjoyment of co-workers? Do you happily and regularly invite people to watch you work and have them yell at how bad you're doing? Do you invite people you don't work with to approach you either while your working or at the end of the day, and ask you why you did your job the way you did it?

Frankly, I'm stunned at your attitude in this thread. I invite you to buy some equipment and attend some clinics - and spend 30-40 hours a year without pay for the privilege of working, and THEN come here and tell us we should allow Joe Random Fan to come up to us between games.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by 7IronRef

Adam, you seem knowledgeable and reasonable most of the time, maybe I am not reading you correctly.

IF the OP made the comment in the way he actually stated during the game, it is on the official to stay professional and not engage fans. Just because someone makes a comment or asks a question does not mean that an official needs to pay attention to it. I would hardly call the initial comment as a nuisance.

Even in the AAU setting, just how are you going to eject someone without the backing of the gym supervisor. It is rare that these individuals will eject unless vulgar or confrontational in nature.

I think you've missed the point entirely... your first comment is EXACTLY right... if the OP really did just make a comment, the official's not going to hear it. Nor the 2nd or the 3rd. Heck, often we can barely hear the coaches, much less an individual voice in the crowd... If "some fan" has somehow gotten on the official's radar, then clearly he's done far more than just making a comment.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

My response to a spectator with a legitimate question after the game would be similar to my response to a coach during the game - short and polite. For example, "I don't remember that play in particular, but if it happened as you describe it, you would be correct". Or "If it happened like that, you would be correct, but I saw the play differently."

The big problem with this is that you don't ever really know if the spectator has "a legitimate question" and is trying to learn ... or if he is going to blow up when you tell him you saw it differently. (Especially a fan, as in the OP, who has already been so vocal that I had to notice him during the game!)

[7IronRef]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I think you've missed the point entirely... your first comment is EXACTLY right... if the OP really did just make a comment, the official's not going to hear it. Nor the 2nd or the 3rd. Heck, often we can barely hear the coaches, much less an individual voice in the crowd... If "some fan" has somehow gotten on the official's radar, then clearly he's done far more than just making a comment.

In the OP, the official heard the comment and replied in a negative way.