travel violations

[upprdeck]

a player with both feet on the floor jumps off both feet and whirls to the basket around the defender and then dribbles before coming back to the floor.

so when do you address officials to have discussions about plays? its not like there is a place to have the discussion about rules with any officials you will ever see again.

as a coach there is nothing worse than watching rules mistakes with ref/umpires never get corrected. In a local league you have a small chance of getting local coordinator to have a discussion . no chance in AAU type settings where most teams never go back.

If you are at a game and watch a rule get blown do you choose to say nothing or inquire after the game?

I ask on these boards to get clarity. how do refs fix their mistakes if noone every asks them? you can ask in a friendly tone , shouldnt the refs want to get better as well? I have had some great conversations with refs/umpires about rules over the years during and after games. Had some even say thanks for reminding them when the mess up a call. it doesnt have to by a non-civil conversation.

[ballgame99]

I'm guessing if they wanted you tossed you weren't politely inquiring why that wasn't a travel. If you seriously want to have a conversation with the refs, approach them in between games and say 'hey guys, help me out here, I have a question for you'.

Better yet, take some video and post it here

[bob jenkins]

99% of the time, fans who "ask questions" as you did from the front row aren't really asking to learn. You might be the exception, but you're going to be treated like the 99%.

[upprdeck]

thats exactly what i did. i waited until game over, they were on break. the two teams had left. my words were something like. Can I ask you for clarification on what a travel is with the pivot foot. I got the look that you get from someone who thinks they know more than you, but they said sure. I showed them the footwork i was asking about , they agreed it was a travel. one ref left to get the official and the other gave some snotty attitude and several snide remarks.

I have more connections to umpires than basketball

My only remarks during the actual game were while ref was about a foot away during a break "Blue thats a travel he already established a pivot foot".

hey its AAU there are hundreds a parents screaming about most every call and usually because one team is playing big city/street g-town type ball and the other is playing small town less aggressive and getting blown away.

but refs dont have to be rude to make up for the crowd?

[Adam]

1. If you're making enough of a nuisance to get my attention in an AAU game, you risk getting tossed.
2. A site director who refused to toss you for any reason wouldn't be getting officials from my association for long. Especially if his reason is, "the fan had a point." In this case, I'm probably tossing you for approaching me after the game combined with making a nuisance of yourself during the game.
3. If the first thing I hear is a polite approach between games, I'll engage. I'll tell you what I saw, but I'm not getting into a discussion, though. I'll tell you what I saw and what the rule is, but that's all.
4. Your description is of traveling, but the refs may have seen it differently.

[upprdeck]

Is the lack of discussion just because there is so much negativity at these events? I mean the amount of screaming at the refs amazes me at these things. Every call seems to get a yell. I tend to only question

AAU vs HS are called in a totally different way from my discussions with ref's who are actually friendly. Rules violations are not to be called. rough play is allowed and only marginally dangerous fouls will be called because the schedule must be kept. I have been flat told out by ref's there will be home cooking bias against out of town teams. Now in HS I think its more caused by crowd energy than any real bias but in AAU that seems to much more prevalent.

when you see the same violation 20-30 times in a game you do have to wonder why its never called.

I have done a coached of games. never had a T, dont scream or swear and I have refs who I have gotten to know pretty well and have great discussions with at these events who dont do any of our local games.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by upprdeck

Every call seems to get a yell. I tend to only question

Potato / po-tah-to

I have done a coached of games. never had a T, dont scream or swear and I have refs who I have gotten to know pretty well and have great discussions with at these events who dont do any of our local games.

And, if these refs had been some you "knew" then you'd more likely get an explanation (they saw something different; you are right but there was no advantage gained so they didn't call it at this level, ...)

But, when they don't know you, you start out by "questioning" from the stands and then approach them after the game, you've used up all your benefit of the doubt (which, frankly, starts at about zero for "strangers in the stands" at these types of events).

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Potato / po-tah-to



And, if these refs had been some you "knew" then you'd more likely get an explanation (they saw something different; you are right but there was no advantage gained so they didn't call it at this level, ...)

But, when they don't know you, you start out by "questioning" from the stands and then approach them after the game, you've used up all your benefit of the doubt (which, frankly, starts at about zero for "strangers in the stands" at these types of events).

Ex. Act. Ly.

[upprdeck]

I wish the places I have seen AAU games actually had someone watching the games. There is a reason so many college coaches are pushing for changes in how games are officiated , when coaches like Patino come out and say commit 10 fouls because only 2 will be called there is something wrong with the game. AUU is worse because some teams have 6-7 players and others having 10-12 they just cant play that style and survive.

I have never been an AAU game where anyone was over seeing any of the officiating going on. I have been at many college/HS events where was over site. much easier to be a baseball ump with 5-6 plays a game that require some thought as opposed to basketball that has multiple events on one trip down court.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by upprdeck

Is the lack of discussion just because there is so much negativity at these events? I mean the amount of screaming at the refs amazes me at these things. Every call seems to get a yell. I tend to only question

AAU vs HS are called in a totally different way from my discussions with ref's who are actually friendly. Rules violations are not to be called. rough play is allowed and only marginally dangerous fouls will be called because the schedule must be kept. I have been flat told out by ref's there will be home cooking bias against out of town teams. Now in HS I think its more caused by crowd energy than any real bias but in AAU that seems to much more prevalent.

when you see the same violation 20-30 times in a game you do have to wonder why its never called.

Some officials just refuse to call a travel unless it is so grossly obvious that it looks like a running play in football.

As for rough play, unfortunately, you get refs of the mentality that they just want to cash a check and get home. Their games turn into a brawl and they blame it on the players/coaches. It isn't about keeping it on schedule, it is about being lazy. If the directors want proper games and are worried about schedule, they'll schedule differently or change the length of the games if they are getting behind.

Home cooking...not in any game I'm on. I don't care where a team is from, I only see plays. But, it could happen.

[upprdeck]

I get the same sense. many are at the AUU events to make the $3-400 and go home. I have seen some take the time to explain to kids what they are doing wrong and thats great to see. These things should be about making kids better since almost none of them will go anywhere after high school . So much of it is just about making money now its sad.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by upprdeck

... I have seen some take the time to explain to kids what they are doing wrong and thats great to see....

That's really the coaches' and parents' job, especially if we're talking about AAU competition.

Originally Posted by upprdeck

These things should be about making kids better since almost none of them will go anywhere after high school . So much of it is just about making money now its sad. ....

I'm leaving my wife and my own kids at home to go officiate for a reason, and if I'm not in camp, it is #1 about making $$$. Once I'm on the court the players and coaches are going to get the best that I can give. But you will never, ever hear me say "I'm doing it for the kids".

I may do a specific event pro bono (as I did for the local Air Force base recently) but I did not get into officiate "for the kids". I got into it to may myself some $$$.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by upprdeck

I get the same sense. many are at the AUU events to make the $3-400 and go home. I have seen some take the time to explain to kids what they are doing wrong and thats great to see. These things should be about making kids better since almost none of them will go anywhere after high school . So much of it is just about making money now its sad.

I'm with BNR, I'm not there to teach the kids. I'm there to provide a venue for coaches to do that. Younger levels, I might offer a few things during a game, but for the most part, I'm not coaching.

If I wanted to coach, I'd coach.

And frankly, Camron didn't note it, but if you wanted higher quality officiating, you'd have to pay more for it. With what AAU refs typically get paid, they have to do more games to make it worth their time and travel. Pay them more, and you'll get higher quality officials working fewer games each.

With what I get paid for summer ball, I'm just not in the mood to put up with much from fans or even coaches, frankly. It's not that I'm going to call a technical for conduct I'd put up with in high school; I'm just going to deal with it less patiently. I'm less inclined to warn coaches for borderline behavior. I'd rather spend my energy watching the players.

And fans in a 6th grade game are going to get less rope than they would in a high school game.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by upprdeck

I get the same sense. many are at the AUU events to make the $3-400 and go home. I have seen some take the time to explain to kids what they are doing wrong and thats great to see. These things should be about making kids better since almost none of them will go anywhere after high school . So much of it is just about making money now its sad.

Just out of curiousity ... do you do your regular job for the money? Or do you do it for the enjoyment of co-workers? Do you happily and regularly invite people to watch you work and have them yell at how bad you're doing? Do you invite people you don't work with to approach you either while your working or at the end of the day, and ask you why you did your job the way you did it?

Frankly, I'm stunned at your attitude in this thread. I invite you to buy some equipment and attend some clinics - and spend 30-40 hours a year without pay for the privilege of working, and THEN come here and tell us we should allow Joe Random Fan to come up to us between games.

[7IronRef]

Originally Posted by Adam

1. If you're making enough of a nuisance to get my attention in an AAU game, you risk getting tossed.
2. A site director who refused to toss you for any reason wouldn't be getting officials from my association for long. Especially if his reason is, "the fan had a point." In this case, I'm probably tossing you for approaching me after the game combined with making a nuisance of yourself during the game.
3. If the first thing I hear is a polite approach between games, I'll engage. I'll tell you what I saw, but I'm not getting into a discussion, though. I'll tell you what I saw and what the rule is, but that's all.
4. Your description is of traveling, but the refs may have seen it differently.

Wow!

I don't participate in many conversations any more, but I like reading what everyone has to say.

Adam, you seem knowledgeable and reasonable most of the time, maybe I am not reading you correctly.

IF the OP made the comment in the way he actually stated during the game, it is on the official to stay professional and not engage fans. Just because someone makes a comment or asks a question does not mean that an official needs to pay attention to it. I would hardly call the initial comment as a nuisance.

Even in the AAU setting, just how are you going to eject someone without the backing of the gym supervisor. It is rare that these individuals will eject unless vulgar or confrontational in nature.

While I don't see a problem with trying to educate someone, once you open the door for a conversation, be professional. If a person does not want to accept your explanation, just end the conversation and move away. There are enough bad examples out there, don't become another one.

Lastly, you never know who you are talking to, what their intentions are by starting a conversation, they might even have someone filming you for their youtube page.