Hey Chuck...

[Mark Dexter]

The mechanic of stepping deep @ the lane line - what happens if you have to rotate? Do you go straight in, around the basket, then deep again?

[mick]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
The mechanic of stepping deep @ the lane line - what happens if you have to rotate? Do you go straight in, around the basket, then deep again?

Mark,
When you have a backboard stand/post in the way, you do what you must. You prolly don't wanna get screened by the high thingy.
mick

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by mick
You prolly don't wanna get screened by the high thingy.

What is that? Sounds Aussie or something.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by mick
3-4 feet seems close to me, but I can live with it.
Do they teach opening up for rebounds?

3-4 feet doesn't seem all that "deep" to me either. But once I was reminded that the basket stanchion (Juulie please forgive the spelling ) is probably only 4 feet off the court, it makes more sense. Those NBA guys (and gal, V Palmer is here at camp!) stand nearly on the endline when they're in their normal Lead position.

As far as rebounds go, they haven't mentioned it. But in the pro game, the Lead is responsible for the lane area below the FT circle, and extending all the way to the near sideline. So I imagine that on a long rebound to the Lead's side, they would want you to open up to the endline. I'll ask during a break tomorrow. Good question!

My performance today was much better than last night. I felt a little more at ease today with my partners. We certainly had more faith in each other today. Only two games today. First game we were observed by J.B. Caldwell (SEC guy). The game went smoothly, for the most part. He really scrutinized our play selectivity. "Could he have finished that play if you'd let it go?" "If you'd held your whistle for half a second, could he have made a lay-up instead of shooting 1-and-1?" He had some good comments about my jump ball administration, and he had some great comments about crew dynamics, the Referee's responsibilities, and things like that. The story about that is long and not very interesting, but the bottom line was that the Referee needs to show some leadership in the crew and help the crew stay out of trouble when possible. (As you can guess, since he commented on my jump ball administration, I was the R in question!) Then he gave us two specific plays to review on the tape, told us to give him our thoughts on them later, and he left. He was not pulling punches, but they were delivered in a very positive way.

We had an interesting situation at the end of the half. Shot, foul, buzzer ending the period clearly after the whistle. We cleared the lane, shot 2 FTs and ended the half. J.B. asked if we even considered putting time back on the clock. Partner 1 says "no". Partner 2 says something about the clock stopping in the last two minutes of the half. I say, "No, b/c we have a second of lag time. So since the horn was less than a second after the whistle, we don't put any time back on." J.B. disagreed. He said you need to get together and decide how much time was left at the time of the whistle. I know that's not true for HS rules, which is what we're playing at this boys' AAU tournament. But I can't remember if it's true at the NCAA level. I was woefully unprepared for camp and didn't bring my rulebooks. Anybody care to pull out the NCAA book and find me an AR on the subject?

Second game was even better for us as a crew. Probably b/c I wasn't the R for that one We were observed by Tony Brown. Good guy. The game was close for a half, but one team had too much of a height advantage. Eventually turned into a 20-point game. I got some good suggestions for my mechanics (which have been made to me before, but it's hard to break old habits). Comments to me were about presentation and presence in this game, rather than calls. Well, except for one Doggone it. But we were told that we worked the best officiated game of the day at that site, which made me feel great after last night.

(As an aside, Theeeee Red Sox win!! Theeeeeeeeeeeee Red Sox win!)

Anyway, I gotta hit the sack b/c tomorrow is an early meeting for some reason. Somebody help me out with the NCAA lag time question!! Thanks.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
J.B. Caldwell (SEC guy). The game went smoothly, for the most part. He really scrutinized our play selectivity. "Could he have finished that play if you'd let it go?" "If you'd held your whistle for half a second, could he have made a lay-up instead of shooting 1-and-1?"

I wish that I could get this guy to come talk to the officials in our association. It seems that I think this at least twice a game when I work with some guys.
But more importantly, could you ask him how he feels about a late whistle if the guy misses the lay-up that you thought he could finish?

Originally posted by ChuckElias
He had some good comments about my jump ball administration

I'd really like to know what he said, Chuck.

[mick]

Originally posted by ChuckElias


We had an interesting situation at the end of the half. Shot, foul, buzzer ending the period clearly after the whistle. We cleared the lane, shot 2 FTs and ended the half. J.B. asked if we even considered putting time back on the clock. Partner 1 says "no". Partner 2 says something about the clock stopping in the last two minutes of the half. I say, "No, b/c we have a second of lag time. So since the horn was less than a second after the whistle, we don't put any time back on." J.B. disagreed. He said you need to get together and decide how much time was left at the time of the whistle. I know that's not true for HS rules, which is what we're playing at this boys' AAU tournament. But I can't remember if it's true at the NCAA level. I was woefully unprepared for camp and didn't bring my rulebooks. Anybody care to pull out the NCAA book and find me an AR on the subject?

Rule 2-5.1 -- At or near the end of any period, officials shall be permitted to consult a courtside television monitor, when such monitor is available, to assist in determining if the game clock or shot clock expired before the release of a shot. Previously, rules did not permit officials to consult a courtside television monitor under such circumstances at the end of the first period, nor did they permit consulting a monitor at any time to determine if a shot clock violation occurred. The rationale is to give officials more assistance in making the correct call in period-ending situations while continuing to limit the potential for interruption of game action by maintaining firm limits on television monitor consultation.

[ChuckElias]

Thanks mick, but is there anything about putting time back on the clock if it expires after the official's whistle sounds?

[ChuckElias]

I forgot to mention one incident that was kind of funny (only b/c it didn't happen to me!) that occured prior to my first game yesterday. The clock was winding down to game time and the observer spotted one of the refs walking in the hallway brushing his teeth 48 seconds before the game was supposed to tip off. The observer was ripped and apparently tore into the guy for being more concerned about looking cool than about getting on the court and doing his job. The observer was HOT. I didn't see the butt-chewing, but he was still steamed afterward when I saw him. Glad it wasn't me!

Originally posted by Nevadaref

I'd really like to know what he said, Chuck.

Sure, no problem. The tap was stolen and neither of partners called it. I thought it was stolen, but didn't have the best look from right underneath, plus I didn't have the whistle in my mouth.

So after the game, J.B. comes in and says, "The tap was stolen. They should've blown it dead, but I put the responsibility for that on you." He then gave me some good tips for keeping the jumpers from getting a quick read on the toss.

He said that no matter where the two jumpers are positioned, he asks both of them to back up a couple inches. This give him a little space to get between them, but more importantly, it takes them out of their comfort zone. He talks to them as they're repositioning. He says, "Let it go all the way up; I'm gonna give both of you a fair shot to get to it." Then he varies his rhythm for the toss. Sometimes he'll bounce it first, sometimes not. Sometimes he'll toss it right away, sometimes he holds onto it for an extra second or two. He basically doesn't want anybody to get too comfortable with timing his toss.

I'll have one chance to toss today, so I'm going to try out the advice.

Last note for the morning. I'm staying with my dad and making these posts with his computer. It needs a minor repair, so I may not get back online till I get home. If you don't hear from me for a couple days, that's why. Take care everybody.

[mick]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Thanks mick, but is there anything about putting time back on the clock if it expires after the official's whistle sounds?

http://www.ncaa.org/champadmin/baske.../20030218.html

Interpretation (1/30/03)

When there are two whistles, one signifying the end of the game and one signifying a foul, the official may go to the monitor to see which whistle stopped the electronic timing device. This may only be done if a timing device is being used where the whistle stops the clock. The official may check to see if time needs to be put back on the game clock because an error may have occurred with the timing device.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
So after the game, J.B. comes in and says, "The tap was stolen. They should've blown it dead, but I put the responsibility for that on you." He then gave me some good tips for keeping the jumpers from getting a quick read on the toss.

I'm assuming that "the tap was stolen" means that someone tapped it before it reached it's highest point? Or that one of the jumpers grabbed it?

He said that no matter where the two jumpers are positioned, he asks both of them to back up a couple inches. This give him a little space to get between them, but more importantly, it takes them out of their comfort zone. He talks to them as they're repositioning. He says, "Let it go all the way up; I'm gonna give both of you a fair shot to get to it." Then he varies his rhythm for the toss. Sometimes he'll bounce it first, sometimes not. Sometimes he'll toss it right away, sometimes he holds onto it for an extra second or two. He basically doesn't want anybody to get too comfortable with timing his toss.

This detail of attention is really amazing. I can see I've got A LOT to work on!!

[devdog69]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Thanks mick, but is there anything about putting time back on the clock if it expires after the official's whistle sounds?

I'm sure you've looked it up by now, Chuck, but for other's reading enjoyment...

NCAA Rule 2-12/Art. 10, A.R. 27 Case play has the official seeing the clock as he blows the whistle to stop play and it is at five seconds. If more than one second goes off, an "obvious timing mistake" has been made and the clock should be reset to five seconds. This is where the one second lag time comes from.

I do however, subscribe to and practice the theory that the one second lag time is out the window if I look up at the clock after the whistle has blown instead of looking at it while it is being blown. The timer should be able to push the button in the time it takes me to look at the clock if I am not already seeing it. I have received big kudos this summer for being aware of the clock, even had it changed three times in one very close game and got nothing but backslaps for being aware and taking charge. I would have put time back on in your situation, I'm sure.

[Jay R]

I enjoyed reading this post. I'm a little jealous of Chuck, seems like a great learning experience.

I haven't been frequenting the forum lately, so I am unaware of this camp. Is this an NBA camp?

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
First game we were observed by J.B. Caldwell (SEC guy).

Now, I'm not bitter about that . . . . .

(As you can guess, since he commented on my jump ball administration, I was the R in question!)

Well, not anymore under NCAA rules. (I liked R required to toss - it made it easier for me as scorekeeper to know who the R was.) During his camp, J.B. wouldn't stop telling us about how stupid he thought that requirement was . . .

We had an interesting situation at the end of the half. Shot, foul, buzzer ending the period clearly after the whistle. We cleared the lane, shot 2 FTs and ended the half. J.B. asked if we even considered putting time back on the clock. Partner 1 says "no". Partner 2 says something about the clock stopping in the last two minutes of the half. I say, "No, b/c we have a second of lag time. So since the horn was less than a second after the whistle, we don't put any time back on." J.B. disagreed. He said you need to get together and decide how much time was left at the time of the whistle.

I had the same situation happen during one of my camp games - whistle followed by immediate horn. We shot the FT's, ended the quarter, and our evaluator said we should "never" end the quarter/half with free throws - always put either 0.2 or 0.4 on the clock.

By college rules, he's right - no lag time. First, from a January 2000 women's bulletin:

Putting time back on the clock at end of game when horn goes off after official's whistle. The clock is running down and an official blows the whistle for a foul. Immediately after the whistle, the horn blows to end the game. The timer did not stop the clock on the whistle; therefore, there must be time left in the game. If the clock does not show tenths of a second, the official must put one second on the clock. If tenths of a second show on the clock, then the official would put three-tenths of a second. Obviously if the time between the whistle and the horn is not immediate, more tenths would be put back on.

This seems to be backed up by 5-9-1 - the game clock shall be stopped when an official [whistles].

AR 3 provides for going to the monitor, but describes a situation where there is a foul, whistle, and then the horn sounds - it does not, however, state to automatically put time back on the clock.

Any thoughts on this?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by rainmaker
I'm assuming that "the tap was stolen" means that someone tapped it before it reached it's highest point? Or that one of the jumpers grabbed it?

It means the former, Juules.

This detail of attention is really amazing. I can see I've got A LOT to work on!!

You and me both, girl. You and me, both. But it sure has been fun.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jay R
I haven't been frequenting the forum lately, so I am unaware of this camp. Is this an NBA camp?

It's not an NBA try-out, if that's what you mean. It's run by Ronnie Nunn, the new Supervisor of Officials for the NBA. It emphasizes NBA philosophies and mechanics, but is a great learning experience for any level of ball.

[Edited by ChuckElias on Jul 29th, 2003 at 09:56 PM]