Hey Chuck...

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
PS I really wanted to hear J.B.'s take on that late whistle. Hopefully, you were able to ask him or have some contact info for him.

Jeez, I'm sorry Nevada. I never did ask him, and I don't have contact info for any of the staff. How late of a whistle are we talking, here? Three dribbles then the layup? I'd guess too late. But I dont' know what JB would say. Sorry

[Nevadaref]

Let's say no dribbles are involved. A1 ends his dribble and makes a move to the basket. B1 bumps/hits him while he is in the act of shooting. The official holds his whistle to see if A1 can make the lay-in. A1 gets a good shot at it, but misses. Total time, maybe two seconds. Can you blow the whistle as soon as you see the shot is not going in and put A1 at the line for two?
That is the question I wanted an official from the SEC to answer.
I personally do this quite frequently. If the shot goes, I have nothing. If he misses, I call the foul late.

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
Let's say no dribbles are involved. A1 ends his dribble and makes a move to the basket. B1 bumps/hits him while he is in the act of shooting. The official holds his whistle to see if A1 can make the lay-in. A1 gets a good shot at it, but misses. Total time, maybe two seconds. Can you blow the whistle as soon as you see the shot is not going in and put A1 at the line for two?
That is the question I wanted an official from the SEC to answer.
I personally do this quite frequently. If the shot goes, I have nothing. If he misses, I call the foul late.

Wow, really? You don't ever call a foul on a made basket?

If I picked this up from somebody doing my game, I'd flip out. Maybe we are going at a player who we want to get in foul trouble. ("Now team, if you get contact from #33, make sure to miss the shot or the ref won't call the foul.")

It is a foul when the contact is illegal or puts the shooter at a disadvantage. Even disadvantaged shooters make the shot sometimes. Just because the result was a made shot doesn't mean that at a disadvantage didn't take place.

Also, aren't you setting a tone that illegal contact on the shooter is allowed? I know as a player, when I do something that doesn't get called, I'll do it more and more.

[mick]

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

Wow, really? You don't ever call a foul on a made basket?

If I picked this up from somebody doing my game, I'd flip out. Maybe we are going at a player who we want to get in foul trouble. ("Now team, if you get contact from #33, make sure to miss the shot or the ref won't call the foul.")

It is a foul when the contact is illegal or puts the shooter at a disadvantage. Even disadvantaged shooters make the shot sometimes. Just because the result was a made shot doesn't mean that at a disadvantage didn't take place.

Also, aren't you setting a tone that illegal contact on the shooter is allowed? I know as a player, when I do something that doesn't get called, I'll do it more and more.

PACoach,
Nevadaref seems to think outside the lines from time to time.
mick

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

Wow, really? You don't ever call a foul on a made basket?

If I picked this up from somebody doing my game, I'd flip out. Maybe we are going at a player who we want to get in foul trouble. ("Now team, if you get contact from #33, make sure to miss the shot or the ref won't call the foul.")

It is a foul when the contact is illegal or puts the shooter at a disadvantage. Even disadvantaged shooters make the shot sometimes. Just because the result was a made shot doesn't mean that at a disadvantage didn't take place.

Also, aren't you setting a tone that illegal contact on the shooter is allowed? I know as a player, when I do something that doesn't get called, I'll do it more and more.

Easy there Coach! Remember the context of what Chuck and I were discussing. These are plays from one of Chuck's games at a camp in which there was some contact, but not a great deal, either as a player was making a move past his opponent for a clear scoring opportunity or as a player made a lay-in. His partner called a foul on the play. The evaluator, J.B. Caldwell, a D1 official in the SEC, questioned a quick whistle on these type of plays with comments such as, "Could he have finished that play if you'd let it go?" "If you'd held your whistle for half a second, could he have made a lay-up instead of shooting 1-and-1?"
Now while in my last post I did write the the defensive player "bumps/hits" the offensive player, I assumed that Chuck would take it in the same context as JB was talking about and understand that I mean only a little bump or a flick on the arm as the player powers to the basket.
JB was gently telling this official at that camp that he thought the contact on that play was not severe enough to prevent normal offensive movements (4-19-1) or put that player at a disadvantage. In fact, calling the foul too quickly may have taken away an advantage or scoring opportunity from the offense.
All good officials use the advantage/disadvantage philosophy to some degree, and that is all we are discussing here.
Of course, if the contact is a solid whack or the bump/push is hard enough to make me believe that the offensive player now has a significantly harder shot, I WILL call the foul whether the goal is successful or not.
Lastly, this discussion also is much more pertinent to boys' games than to girls'due to the amount of physical contact the players can be expected to handle.

Originally posted by mick
PACoach,
Nevadaref seems to think outside the lines from time to time.
mick

Mick is right here. I do tend to take a different approach at times. I like to push the envelope on wording of the rules, philosophy, and human interactions in the game.
For example, you said that you would flip out if you merely picked up on an official doing this in your game, what if the official flat out told you he was doing this?
In the recent tournament that I did in Las Vegas I told a coach from Oregon straight to his face that I would never call a travel on a certain play that he was whining about.
The play in question was that twice in the first 5 minutes of the game his team's press was broken for uncontested lay-ups. On both plays I was the lead and the player making the basket with no one within 30 feet of him probably took an extra half step. I ignored it both times. The coach complained to me after the second play that this was a travel. I told him that he should be more concerned with his team getting back on defense and that if he didn't have a defender anywhere in area I was never going to call that a travel. He really didn't like that saying that a travel was a travel, but I believed that he was simply begging for anything that would help his team after they had not played quality defense, and told him I will call advantage/disadvantage. I don't feel a bit bad about what I said to him and I would do it again. Incidently, his team lost 80-77 in 2OT. I'm sure he thought that I screwed him.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

Easy there Coach! Remember the context of what Chuck and I were discussing. These are plays from one of Chuck's games at a camp in which there was some contact, but not a great deal, either as a player was making a move past his opponent for a clear scoring opportunity or as a player made a lay-in. His partner called a foul on the play. The evaluator, J.B. Caldwell, a D1 official in the SEC, questioned a quick whistle on these type of plays with comments such as, "Could he have finished that play if you'd let it go?" "If you'd held your whistle for half a second, could he have made a lay-up instead of shooting 1-and-1?"

There's your problem right there,Nevada. You're talking about a defender fouling a player that's IN the act of shooting. Then you're asking J.B. Caldwell to comment on whether you should call a foul that occurs BEFORE the act of shooting even starts.Apples and oranges! There's a big difference between the two- that difference being in one case you're holding up on your whistle to see if a scoring opportunity will occur,and a completely different case when they are already in the scoring opportunity.You don't get 1-1 for being fouled in the act of shooting,Nevada.

Gotta agree with the Coach on this one!

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Aug 2nd, 2003 at 02:39 AM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
[/B]

Mick is right here. I do tend to take a different approach at times. I like to push the envelope on wording of the rules, philosophy, and human interactions in the game.
For example, you said that you would flip out if you merely picked up on an official doing this in your game, what if the official flat out told you he was doing this?
In the recent tournament that I did in Las Vegas I told a coach from Oregon straight to his face that I would never call a travel on a certain play that he was whining about.
The play in question was that twice in the first 5 minutes of the game his team's press was broken for uncontested lay-ups. On both plays I was the lead and the player making the basket with no one within 30 feet of him probably took an extra half step. I ignored it both times. The coach complained to me after the second play that this was a travel. I told him that he should be more concerned with his team getting back on defense and that if he didn't have a defender anywhere in area I was never going to call that a travel. He really didn't like that saying that a travel was a travel, but I believed that he was simply begging for anything that would help his team after they had not played quality defense, and told him I will call advantage/disadvantage. I don't feel a bit bad about what I said to him and I would do it again. Incidently, his team lost 80-77 in 2OT. I'm sure he thought that I screwed him.
[/B][/QUOTE]As far as I'm concerned,I'll agree that you screwed the Coach.You screwed the poor kids on his team too. You're flat out wrong on this one! Don't try to apply an NBA philosophy to games being played at other levels. Advantage/disadvantage DOESN'T apply to players taking an extra,illegal step. Never has and never will,especially at the high school level. Maybe in a blowout,you can turn a blind eye on an extra step,but to not make the call properly in a close game is absolutely freaking ridiculous!And to top it all off,you then admit to the coach that he is right,but you didn't feel like calling it according to the rules? WOW!

You're not pushing the envelope,Nevada. You're creating your own personal set of rules. Good luck to ya!

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Aug 2nd, 2003 at 06:52 AM]

[Nevadaref]

JR, you are certainly entitled to your opinion and I respect that. I wonder how others on this board feel about this play. I'll just wait for more responses and see who they agree with.
In addition, I can relate a story to you from a game I watched in last year's Christmas tournament in Las Vegas. (Rankings are from USA Today's national HS boys poll)#8 Oak Hill was playing #24 Cheyenne HS (from Vegas) with time winding down in the 4th quarter. Cheyenne had the ball down one. They were in a spread offense with their point guard dribbling near the division line waiting for the clock to run down far enough so they could take the last shot of the game. Oak Hill was letting them employ this strategy and was sitting back inside the three-point line applying absolutely no defensive pressure at all.
With about 15 seconds to go the point guard standing all by himself near half court palmed the ball. The trail official called it. Cheyenne had to foul, Oak Hill made their free throws and eventually won by 6.
The tournament director and the assignor for Las Vegas HS ball and some other officials who worked the state tourney all agreed that this was a terrible decision by the trail official. Each of them told me that in the absence of defensive pressure, the kid could stick the ball down his shorts and they wouldn't call it. General argument: If the defense doesn't do anything to deserve the ball, why should an official stop the game and simply give it to them?
This is why I don't call that travel.

[mick]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee


You're not pushing the envelope,Nevada. You're creating your own personal set of rules. Good luck to ya!

I agree, JR.
If defense disrupts the offense, it has done its job.
If we do not allow traveling on the front end of a press, then we should not allow traveling on the back end of the press.
In Neveadaref's play the defense did work, because it caused the offense to violate.
By Nevadaref's reasoning, a player that breaks away from a defender by more than a few feet, may travel freely.
If that is the case, give me Barry Sanders and you can have Shaq.

---

Call it the same on both ends.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
JR, you are certainly entitled to your opinion and I respect that. I wonder how others on this board feel about this play. I'll just wait for more responses and see who they agree with.
In addition, I can relate a story to you from a game I watched in last year's Christmas tournament in Las Vegas. (Rankings are from USA Today's national HS boys poll)#8 Oak Hill was playing #24 Cheyenne HS (from Vegas) with time winding down in the 4th quarter. Cheyenne had the ball down one. They were in a spread offense with their point guard dribbling near the division line waiting for the clock to run down far enough so they could take the last shot of the game. Oak Hill was letting them employ this strategy and was sitting back inside the three-point line applying absolutely no defensive pressure at all.
With about 15 seconds to go the point guard standing all by himself near half court palmed the ball. The trail official called it. Cheyenne had to foul, Oak Hill made their free throws and eventually won by 6.
The tournament director and the assignor for Las Vegas HS ball and some other officials who worked the state tourney all agreed that this was a terrible decision by the trail official. Each of them told me that in the absence of defensive pressure, the kid could stick the ball down his shorts and they wouldn't call it. General argument: If the defense doesn't do anything to deserve the ball, why should an official stop the game and simply give it to them?
This is why I don't call that travel.

For my money (i.e. $0.02), I think you have two very different situations here.

In the case you cited above, you have a situation where both teams have agreed that they will just stand there and let some time run off the clock. They have agreed that for a period of time there will be no contest.

In the other case, both teams are playing, the offensive team has beaten the press, decisively, but then fails to finish cleanly. The defense may have even given up. But this is not a case of both teams agreeing to a no contest.

I wouldn't call the palming in the first case either. But you gotta believe that I'm calling the traveling.