Foul without contact?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BigT

Getting mail and cable.. that was funny...LOL

Was listening to the radio broadcast of the NC State/Florida St game on Saturday and the broadcaster said, "there so long, he was paying rent!"
That made me laugh.

PS the play was called a block. I would love to see it. About 11 mins left in 2nd half.

[Jay R]

Is this deja vu? I remember this discussion from before.

So here is a play I've had before. The player with the ball uses the ball to push his defender back to clear space.
What are you calling?
A No call
B Player control foul
C Technical foul
D Something else

[Nevadaref]

A

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

A

I can't see calling a personal foul because of contact with the ball.

[Jay R]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

A

How can you no call that? Are you that much rulebook lawyer?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jay R

The player with the ball uses the ball to push his defender back to clear space.
What are you calling?
A No call
B Player control foul
C Technical foul
D Something else

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

A

10-6-1: A player shall not.........push.......an opponent by extending arms......


The fact that he's holding the ball doesn't change the fact that it was a push, clearly an illegal act.

Whatever it is, how can it be a no call?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jay R

How can you no call that? Are you that much rulebook lawyer?

1. I don't make up my own rules to suit my personal feelings on plays. You seem to think that makes one a poor official. That's sad since the NFHS has clearly and directly instructed officials to enforce the rules as written and refrain from imposing their personal opinions.
2. If you can't stand ot having a whistle on this action, then you can assess a technical foul and have rules book support. Just be ready for someone to call you a rules lawyer.
3. Consider this play which happens with enough frequency that most of us have encountered it.
A defensive player grabs a ball being held by an offensive player in an attempt to create a heldball. Quickly the offensive (or defensive) player pulls the ball away and the force used causes the opposing player to fall to the floor. There is no player-to-player contact only each player touching the ball. Do you call a foul on this action?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

3. Consider this play which happens with enough frequency that most of us have encountered it.
A defensive player grabs a ball being held by an offensive player in an attempt to create a heldball. Quickly the offensive (or defensive) player pulls the ball away and the force used causes the opposing player to fall to the floor. There is no player-to-player contact only each player touching the ball. Do you call a foul on this action?

Different plays entirely. In this play, the defender is going for the ball. In the debated play, the offensive player is using the ball instead of a hand or arm to displace an opponent. Essentially, using a loophole in the rules to create an advantage. One could argue that this is an advantage not intended by the rules.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

10-6-1: A player shall not.........push.......an opponent by extending arms......


The fact that he's holding the ball doesn't change the fact that it was a push, clearly an illegal act.

Whatever it is, how can it be a no call?

That's a laughable interpretation. Talk about not understanding the context.
The text says arms, legs, hip, etc., but clearly does NOT list the ball.
Trying looking at these for clarification:
"ART. 1 . . . Blocking is illegal personal contact which impedes the progress of an opponent with or without the ball.
ART. 2 . . . Charging is illegal personal contact caused by pushing or moving into an opponent’s torso."

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Adam

Different plays entirely. In this play, the defender is going for the ball. In the debated play, the offensive player is using the ball instead of a hand or arm to displace an opponent. Essentially, using a loophole in the rules to create an advantage. One could argue that this is an advantage not intended by the rules.

Or one could argue that the defender should grab the ball.

[cmb]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

3. Consider this play which happens with enough frequency that most of us have encountered it.
A defensive player grabs a ball being held by an offensive player in an attempt to create a heldball. Quickly the offensive (or defensive) player pulls the ball away and the force used causes the opposing player to fall to the floor. There is no player-to-player contact only each player touching the ball. Do you call a foul on this action?

No. Jump ball or no call, depending how long the ball was tied up.

But that made me think of this play: how many times have we seen someone block a shot attempt with so much force on the ball that it sends the offensive player to the floor? And do we call foul there? I don't, but somehow I see these plays as different than the ones discussed earlier in this thread.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by cmb

No. Jump ball or no call, depending how long the ball was tied up.

But that made me think of this play: how many times have we seen someone block a shot attempt with so much force on the ball that it sends the offensive player to the floor? And do we call foul there? I don't, but somehow I see these plays as different than the ones discussed earlier in this thread.

Good example. What is different and is making people uncomfortable is the element of intent. If using the ball for a deliberate push strikes the official as an unfair act, then the proper penalty is an unsporting technical foul. Take a look at the definition-basically word for word! I'm not against an official making that call. I'm only against an official making a call that is wrong by rule and charging a personal foul in this case.

ART. 14 . . . An unsporting foul is a noncontact technical foul which consists of unfair, unethical, dishonorable conduct or any behavior not in accordance with the spirit of fair play.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The text says arms, legs, hip, etc., but clearly does NOT list the ball.

Doesn't list a 2 x 4 either. Can I carry one of them and use it to clear space?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Adam

I agree with just another ref. I'll add that it's possible the official saw something you didn't (contact). Or, he just missed it and thought he saw something you didn't.

Now I get the joke. HA!!!

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Doesn't list a 2 x 4 either. Can I carry one of them and use it to clear space?

So if he uses a 2x4 you're calling a personal foul instead of a technical foul.