Foul without contact?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jay R

The player with the ball uses the ball to push his defender back to clear space.
What are you calling?
A No call
B Player control foul
C Technical foul
D Something else

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

A

10-6-1: A player shall not.........push.......an opponent by extending arms......


The fact that he's holding the ball doesn't change the fact that it was a push, clearly an illegal act.

Whatever it is, how can it be a no call?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

10-6-1: A player shall not.........push.......an opponent by extending arms......


The fact that he's holding the ball doesn't change the fact that it was a push, clearly an illegal act.

Whatever it is, how can it be a no call?

That's a laughable interpretation. Talk about not understanding the context.
The text says arms, legs, hip, etc., but clearly does NOT list the ball.
Trying looking at these for clarification:
"ART. 1 . . . Blocking is illegal personal contact which impedes the progress of an opponent with or without the ball.
ART. 2 . . . Charging is illegal personal contact caused by pushing or moving into an opponent’s torso."

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The text says arms, legs, hip, etc., but clearly does NOT list the ball.

Doesn't list a 2 x 4 either. Can I carry one of them and use it to clear space?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Doesn't list a 2 x 4 either. Can I carry one of them and use it to clear space?

So if he uses a 2x4 you're calling a personal foul instead of a technical foul.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

So if he uses a 2x4 you're calling a personal foul instead of a technical foul.

The point was:

He pushed. He cleared space. That is a given in the case at hand.


I understand the argument that contact with the ball cannot be a personal, though I don't agree.

I don't understand how it could be a no call.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by just another ref

10-6-1: A player shall not.........push.......an opponent by extending arms......


The fact that he's holding the ball doesn't change the fact that it was a push, clearly an illegal act.

Whatever it is, how can it be a no call?

This is an enormous stretch. To allow you to see that, I invite you to consider exactly the same play without a ball in his hands. He extends his arms, and the defender flinches, or dodges those arms. You calling a foul?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

This is an enormous stretch. To allow you to see that, I invite you to consider exactly the same play without a ball in his hands. He extends his arms, and the defender flinches, or dodges those arms. You calling a foul?

Nobody flinched or dodged anything here. There was contact, it just so happens it was with the ball. Picture it this way. Defender is there all day, stationary, waiting. Dribbler approaches and goes airborne. You are straightlined, directly behind the defender. There is contact and the defender lands flat on his back. You can't see what made the actual contact, an outstretched arm or the ball held in both hands.

I don't see where it makes any difference.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Nobody flinched or dodged anything here. There was contact, it just so happens it was with the ball. Picture it this way. Defender is there all day, stationary, waiting. Dribbler approaches and goes airborne. You are straightlined, directly behind the defender. There is contact and the defender lands flat on his back. You can't see what made the actual contact, an outstretched arm or the ball held in both hands.

I don't see where it makes any difference.

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I am not calling fouls I do not see. If I am straight-lined that is even worse to call something I do not see. Players also flop or exaggerate any contact. Saw this several times this year alone.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I am not calling fouls I do not see. If I am straight-lined that is even worse to call something I do not see. Players also flop or exaggerate any contact. Saw this several times this year alone.

Peace

So you're directly behind the defender and you see the offensive player knock him to the floor and land on top, but you make no call because the contact may have been with the ball.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I am not calling fouls I do not see. If I am straight-lined that is even worse to call something I do not see. Players also flop or exaggerate any contact. Saw this several times this year alone.

Peace

I'm not that good. Sometimes I have to put an educated guess on a play. Especially when I'm working 2-man.

There are times when a player goes to the floor and I'm 95% sure that he was tripped or someone stepped on his heel but I couldn't swear under oath that I *saw* foot touch heel. Hasn't stopped me from putting a whistle on it and I haven't been wrong yet when I have.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

I'm not that good. Sometimes I have to put an educated guess on a play. Especially when I'm working 2-man.

There are times when a player goes to the floor and I'm 95% sure that he was tripped or someone stepped on his heel but I couldn't swear under oath that I *saw* foot touch heel. Hasn't stopped me from putting a whistle on it and I haven't been wrong yet when I have.

I rarely work 2 man, so this is not much of an issue for me in "real" games. And even when I have worked 2 man, I do everything to get in position. But the situation that JAR describes sounds rather unlikely. I have also seen enough of games where a player acts more like they were contacted and did not get contacted at all. So from the educated guess part, I tend to not "guess" if I did not see anything that looks like contact. If that makes me a bad official then I will just be a bad official. But I like to call what I see, not what I completely guess on. Or I need to move to improve my angles. I do it often, it is not terribly hard and when it becomes very hard I will quit. And I am not saying I am always in the great position, just stating that I do not want to guess. I am like many that kick myself for missing things or not seeing the entire play, but I can tell you when I see myself on tape that is not very common.

Peace

[Jay R]

Subsequent to Billy Mac's post. Someone grabs a jersey to hold an opponent. Can't call that a personal foul. No contact with the body.

[just another ref]

I'm not talking about guessing as far as the contact. I'm saying if there is contact and the defender is stationary but you cannot see if the contact was with a hand or the ball in the hand it doesn't matter. The call is the same.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Nobody flinched or dodged anything here. There was contact, it just so happens it was with the ball. Picture it this way. Defender is there all day, stationary, waiting. Dribbler approaches and goes airborne. You are straightlined, directly behind the defender. There is contact and the defender lands flat on his back. You can't see what made the actual contact, an outstretched arm or the ball held in both hands.

I don't see where it makes any difference.

Well... there's the rules for one...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Well... there's the rules for one...

Hypothetical. For argument sake. A defensive player reaches out and tries to steal the ball from a ball handler but only ends up contacting the ball handler's arm, creating a disadvantage. Foul? Right? Same play and the contact is a big push from behind, creating a disadvantage, but the contact isn't with any "personal" skin on the ball handler, but on his jersey. No "personal" skin to skin contact? No foul? Right? What difference does it make what comes between Brooke Shields and her jeans, or between two players? A jersey? A basketball? Or nothing (skin to skin contact)? Does it, or doesn't it, matter? Does it, or doesn't it, make a difference?

Now let me get my popcorn out of the microwave, so that I can sit back and continue to enjoy this "basketball contact: personal foul, or technical foul" thread, for about the tenth time over the past decade. Maybe we should have a poll? How else will we ever come up with a solid answer without getting any help from the NFHS?