Foul without contact?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

So if he uses a 2x4 you're calling a personal foul instead of a technical foul.

The point was:

He pushed. He cleared space. That is a given in the case at hand.


I understand the argument that contact with the ball cannot be a personal, though I don't agree.

I don't understand how it could be a no call.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by cmb

But that made me think of this play: how many times have we seen someone block a shot attempt with so much force on the ball that it sends the offensive player to the floor? And do we call foul there? I don't, but somehow I see these plays as different than the ones discussed earlier in this thread.

Very different than the play being discussed. This is just the result of a normal basketball activity. Shot, block and incidental contact after the shot. The intention wasn't to knock the player to the ground but prevent the shot.

Holding the ball and using it to push a defender is no different in my book than using and arm or hand to clear space. The ball is just an extension of the body, and it was used to gain an advantage.

Calling a T here is overkill and not calling anything is wrong IMO.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I can't see calling a personal foul because of contact with the ball.

I can't either.

Peace

[Rich]

Let me look into my crystal ball:

I see a little time away from the board quite possible for two posters if they don't calm things down and stop focusing on each other.

(For those that don't understand why I posted this, I just deleted 4 messages. One was because it focused on and quoted another deleted message.)

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Rich

Let me look into my crystal ball:

I see a little time away from the board quite possible for two posters if they don't calm things down and stop focusing on each other.

Rich, in all honesty I don't start, nor say anything without someone else comment first. If you can show where I started anything I'll gladly apologize.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by deecee

Rich, in all honesty I don't start, nor say anything without someone else comment first. If you can show where I started anything I'll gladly apologize.

You don't need to apologize. You simply need to resist the urge to get in a pissing match. I deleted another post of yours in another thread.

Life would be much easier here if a poster didn't focus on you and you didn't respond right back when he does. Like basketball, it's possible I'll only get the second foul committed...but probably not.

Anyhow, this is my last comment on this. Next time, I head to the garage where I keep the banhammer.

[deecee]

Fair enough.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by deecee

Very different than the play being discussed. This is just the result of a normal basketball activity. Shot, block and incidental contact after the shot. The intention wasn't to knock the player to the ground but prevent the shot.

Holding the ball and using it to push a defender is no different in my book than using and arm or hand to clear space. The ball is just an extension of the body, and it was used to gain an advantage.

Calling a T here is overkill and not calling anything is wrong IMO.

If the defender is facing the offensive player and the offensive player is using the ball then the defender has every opportunity to put his hands on the ball so I'm not calling anything unless the push is to the face area, which would be an unsporting T.

If the defender's back is turned and the offensive player uses the ball to INTENTIONALLY knock the player down or out the way then I would consider an unsporting T.

In neither situation is a personal foul a consideration for me.

[Jay R]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If the defender is facing the offensive player and the offensive player is using the ball then the defender has every opportunity to put his hands on the ball so I'm not calling anything unless the push is to the face area, which would be an unsporting T.

If the defender's back is turned and the offensive player uses the ball to INTENTIONALLY knock the player down or out the way then I would consider an unsporting T.

In neither situation is a personal foul a consideration for me.

Imagine a player using his off hand to push the defender back to create space and then be able to shoot. We would all call a player control foul , correct?

Imagine the same amount of contact and space created but the contact is created by the dribbler using the ball instead of his hand. Are you making a call? That exact play happened to me last year.

[APG]

Y'all take this for what it's worth, but I believe the NBA doesn't take such a literal reading of the rule and would rule this an offensive foul rather than a technical foul.

[hoopguy]

This is ridiculous that referees would even consider a foul for an offensive player sticking the ball out and the defender not being able to do anything about it. In basketball terms that is called 'a good move'.

If I was playing and an offensive player, while holding the ball pushed me with the ball, would I expect a foul???? Of course not. I would attempt to grab or steal the ball away. If I could not do this then the offensive player beat me with his move. I know we are talking NFHS but try taking your ridiculous call to the playground and call an offensive foul. Good luck. Wearing stripes should not cause a loss of common sense.

The name of this thread says it all. Common foul without contact. My rules interpreter has stressed over and over that this is not possible. Generally, the foul in question has to do with a moving pick. No matter how much the person moves while setting the pick, if there is no contact, then no foul. I believe this applies everywhere in our game.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Jay R

How can you no call that? Are you that much rulebook lawyer?

Ok, Jay - you've officially irritated me by making me agree with Nevada. How can you CALL that. If the action is strong enough to be T-worthy, T it up and hope your supervisor's nowhere near the game. But contacting the ball or being contacted by the ball CAN NOT be a personal foul.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by just another ref

10-6-1: A player shall not.........push.......an opponent by extending arms......


The fact that he's holding the ball doesn't change the fact that it was a push, clearly an illegal act.

Whatever it is, how can it be a no call?

This is an enormous stretch. To allow you to see that, I invite you to consider exactly the same play without a ball in his hands. He extends his arms, and the defender flinches, or dodges those arms. You calling a foul?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Jay R

Imagine a player using his off hand to push the defender back to create space and then be able to shoot. We would all call a player control foul , correct?

Imagine the same amount of contact and space created but the contact is created by the dribbler using the ball instead of his hand. Are you making a call? That exact play happened to me last year.

Nope, I'm not making that call.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Count me in the camp that believes this way of thinking and officiating such action is dead wrong BY RULE.

If this actually occured where the only contact by the defender was with the ball, then I'm not calling a block.

Based on the original description provided, I find it hard to believe that there was a serious collision and the only points of contact were between ball and player. If it's that bad a collision, there is other contact involved. If it was just the ball, the contact wasn't probably that bad and I would have a no-call