The 3-person battle continues

[rekent]

Originally Posted by OKREF

The coaches at the lower levels say they don't like 3 man, because they think stuff gets missed.

Statements like that make me glad I'm not in OK now - Do they have clue what they're talking about at all?!.

Originally Posted by OKREF

I officiate both and any sensible person will say 3 man is so much better.

But you are referring to coaches here, so...

[rockyroad]

There was a study done by one of the eastern states ( one of the Carolinas I think) that showed that the first year of three person crews, the number of fouls called on average per game went up. In years 2 and 3, the average went down. They attributed it to two things: 1) the coaches and players cleaned it up knowing they could not get away with stuff away from the ball; and 2) the number of " marginal" calls - ones where we didnt have a good luck at the play but called something based on a partial look - went way, way down. The number of calls considered correct went way up.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

There was a study done by one of the eastern states ( one of the Carolinas I think) that showed that the first year of three person crews, the number of fouls called on average per game went up. In years 2 and 3, the average went down. They attributed it to two things: 1) the coaches and players cleaned it up knowing they could not get away with stuff away from the ball; and 2) the number of " marginal" calls - ones where we didnt have a good luck at the play but called something based on a partial look - went way, way down. The number of calls considered correct went way up.

I don't think it was us. We've been using 3 man for all varsity games for over 20 years. It's mandated by the NCHSAA.

Our local also works 3 man for all JV games in the one 3A and two 4A conferences that we work. How else can you prepare officials to work varsity?

[packersowner]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Our local also works 3 man for all JV games

+1

These are some the hardest games to work with two.

[JetMetFan]

I had a public school AD tell me a couple of weeks ago he's going to push for 3-person crews. NYC only does 3-person in the regular season for AA Varsity in Catholic and Private schools, not public (AA is the highest level of ball in NYC/NYS) and his school is AA public. He said he can't see how we call that level of ball with only two people.

My BV assigner suggested to us a few years ago that we should go 3-person in exchange for a cut in pay to help schools deal with the cost. We're at $105 for 2-person. He said we should go $75 for 3-person, meaning it would only cost the schools $15 for the third, the fees would eventually go back up and more people would get Varsity work. Overwhelming majority of officials said no way. I thought - and still think - the folks who said no were nuts.

NYC publics go 3-person starting with the city QF at all levels (AA, A & B). A few years ago NYS actually went back to 2-person crews for the state semis and finals. The organizers said they were having trouble finding enough officials who understood how to work 3-person so they went back to two. It's back to three again.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

How else can you prepare officials to work varsity?

Here, you have to go to camp to learn 3 whistle mechanics and then you have to work summer ball and scrimmages to get noticed by the chapter leadership.

I really wish more places took your local approach.

[egj13]

We do all our Varsity games here in MT with 3-man. In some of the tiny gyms it is almost too many people out there but we do it anyway.

Last year I was doing a JV game in 2-man. The H coach was asking me to watch off ball screens so I said "I'll watch what I can and that is why we have 3 refs at the varsity level to catch that stuff easier". He looks at me and says "all having 3 refs does is make you all lazy. You had 2 refs for all those years and were just fine, now you all are lazy" I swear...

[SCalScoreKeeper]

everything here is done in two man until the quarterfinals of the section playoffs.there are certain tournaments that are done in three man but not very many.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by SCalScoreKeeper

everything here is done in two man until the quarterfinals of the section playoffs.there are certain tournaments that are done in three man but not very many.

Which validates the point of a better officiated game.

[Pantherdreams]

Went to watch a friend coach at a tournament over the summer. Very high clalibre basketball. For some reason games in 1 gym we two man games in a another were 3 man. We went and watched a shoot around where the HC asked their assistant if they were playing the next opponent in a 3man game or two man. As soon as they found out 2 man they implemented/ went to a package they had where all screens were being set in dead zones/ difficult zones that they never even looked at running in the 3 man game.

Coaches . . .

I can get the cost thing for smallers schools (MS/ High School) in rurla areas that have to ship in crews but overall its just a better game with 3.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

.... the HC asked their assistant if they were playing the next opponent in a 3man game or two man. As soon as they found out 2 man they implemented/ went to a package they had where all screens were being set in dead zones/ difficult zones that they never even looked at running in the 3 man game.

This is really a stretch.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is really a stretch.

Why?

I coached summer league stuff for my sons when they were playing in HS, and we had specific screens we set in specific area when we had two person crews. Not hard to do at all.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Why?

I coached summer league stuff for my sons when they were playing in HS, and we had specific screens we set in specific area when we had two person crews. Not hard to do at all.

Why? Because any good crew is going to work better with 3 than with 2. There is no specific spot that is consistently a "dead zone" in either 3 or 2 man - there may be spots that are difficult to see at specific moments, but to imply there are spots that consistently don't get seen is really naive, and comes from a coaching mindset that assumes the referees are motionless - like cameras at the prison block. But in either 2 or 3 man, the referees are in motion.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Why? Because any good crew is going to work better with 3 than with 2. There is no specific spot that is consistently a "dead zone" in either 3 or 2 man - there may be spots that are difficult to see at specific moments, but to imply there are spots that consistently don't get seen is really naive, and comes from a coaching mindset that assumes the referees are motionless - like cameras at the prison block. But in either 2 or 3 man, the referees are in motion.

I'm not a coach, but it would take me about five minutes to put together several plays that would allow a shooter to get open looks based on knowing where two officials' eyes would be. Just move a post player to screen for the ball handler in an area close to dual coverage. While this is happening, my best shooter would be getting free. A good shooter only needs half a step to get off the shot. The officials and opposing coaches would probably miss some of that action. In basketball, missing some of them with a good shooter can make the difference between a win and a loss.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

... As soon as they found out 2 man they implemented/ went to a package they had where all screens were being set in dead zones/ difficult zones that they never even looked at running in the 3 man game.
.....

This is the most difficult part of 2-man for me. I hate that we miss those illegal screens. Doing a 2-man game tonight where the host sets a lot of questionable screens. This school sometimes uses 3-man. Tonight, if I think it might be illegal, I'm putting a whistle on it. Coach can fuss all he wants (which wouldn't be anything new).