The 3-person battle continues

[egj13]

We do all our Varsity games here in MT with 3-man. In some of the tiny gyms it is almost too many people out there but we do it anyway.

Last year I was doing a JV game in 2-man. The H coach was asking me to watch off ball screens so I said "I'll watch what I can and that is why we have 3 refs at the varsity level to catch that stuff easier". He looks at me and says "all having 3 refs does is make you all lazy. You had 2 refs for all those years and were just fine, now you all are lazy" I swear...

[SCalScoreKeeper]

everything here is done in two man until the quarterfinals of the section playoffs.there are certain tournaments that are done in three man but not very many.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by SCalScoreKeeper

everything here is done in two man until the quarterfinals of the section playoffs.there are certain tournaments that are done in three man but not very many.

Which validates the point of a better officiated game.

[Pantherdreams]

Went to watch a friend coach at a tournament over the summer. Very high clalibre basketball. For some reason games in 1 gym we two man games in a another were 3 man. We went and watched a shoot around where the HC asked their assistant if they were playing the next opponent in a 3man game or two man. As soon as they found out 2 man they implemented/ went to a package they had where all screens were being set in dead zones/ difficult zones that they never even looked at running in the 3 man game.

Coaches . . .

I can get the cost thing for smallers schools (MS/ High School) in rurla areas that have to ship in crews but overall its just a better game with 3.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

.... the HC asked their assistant if they were playing the next opponent in a 3man game or two man. As soon as they found out 2 man they implemented/ went to a package they had where all screens were being set in dead zones/ difficult zones that they never even looked at running in the 3 man game.

This is really a stretch.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is really a stretch.

Why?

I coached summer league stuff for my sons when they were playing in HS, and we had specific screens we set in specific area when we had two person crews. Not hard to do at all.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Why?

I coached summer league stuff for my sons when they were playing in HS, and we had specific screens we set in specific area when we had two person crews. Not hard to do at all.

Why? Because any good crew is going to work better with 3 than with 2. There is no specific spot that is consistently a "dead zone" in either 3 or 2 man - there may be spots that are difficult to see at specific moments, but to imply there are spots that consistently don't get seen is really naive, and comes from a coaching mindset that assumes the referees are motionless - like cameras at the prison block. But in either 2 or 3 man, the referees are in motion.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Why? Because any good crew is going to work better with 3 than with 2. There is no specific spot that is consistently a "dead zone" in either 3 or 2 man - there may be spots that are difficult to see at specific moments, but to imply there are spots that consistently don't get seen is really naive, and comes from a coaching mindset that assumes the referees are motionless - like cameras at the prison block. But in either 2 or 3 man, the referees are in motion.

I'm not a coach, but it would take me about five minutes to put together several plays that would allow a shooter to get open looks based on knowing where two officials' eyes would be. Just move a post player to screen for the ball handler in an area close to dual coverage. While this is happening, my best shooter would be getting free. A good shooter only needs half a step to get off the shot. The officials and opposing coaches would probably miss some of that action. In basketball, missing some of them with a good shooter can make the difference between a win and a loss.

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I'm not a coach, but it would take me about five minutes to put together several plays that would allow a shooter to get open looks based on knowing where two officials' eyes would be. Just move a post player to screen for the ball handler in an area close to dual coverage. While this is happening, my best shooter would be getting free. A good shooter only needs half a step to get off the shot. The officials and opposing coaches would probably miss some of that action. In basketball, missing some of them with a good shooter can make the difference between a win and a loss.

+1

Easy peasy

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

... As soon as they found out 2 man they implemented/ went to a package they had where all screens were being set in dead zones/ difficult zones that they never even looked at running in the 3 man game.
.....

This is the most difficult part of 2-man for me. I hate that we miss those illegal screens. Doing a 2-man game tonight where the host sets a lot of questionable screens. This school sometimes uses 3-man. Tonight, if I think it might be illegal, I'm putting a whistle on it. Coach can fuss all he wants (which wouldn't be anything new).

[Freddy]

We used to have one conference assigning 3-man for F/JV DH's, which was an excellent learning ground for many who are now doing 3-man for varsity in our area (V is all 3-man/woman/person/human). The superintendents axed it against the advice of their AD's. Now, unless a guy gets what he needs from summer camps or from the various off-season scrimmages, he ain't never gonna get to the V level.
There are two prominent, large-school conferences who also cut back to 2-man for F/JV DH's, but several of us always bring in a third--splitting the two checks three ways. Though this sets a bad precedent, giving the schools something they don't pay for, we're hoping they are able to contrast the outcome of the 2-man games with those done by the freebie 3-man crews.
We don't give 'em chronic ballwatchers, only good, young, up-and-coming officials already doing varsity 3-man.
Time will tell if our sales pitch pays off.
The Referee mag article states the case quite well. Should be sent to all AD's and their budgetary-conscious supers.

[JRutledge]

I am blessed to live in a state where 3 Person has been used since 1997 for all playoff assignments. That turned the tide and those that did not go to 3 Person for everything soon did. And now I have only done a single 2 person game on purpose at the varsity level. Well not really on purpose, I was asked at the last minute to cover the game and I did even though in the past I had turned down assignments from that particular school previously (conference does not have a policy and somehow this school did not use 3).

I have never understood the position to only have 2 Person when if something happens the participants want to talk about safety or claim we should be watching everything. But hey, it is their liability on the line.

Peace

[tomegun]

There was one school in particular outside of DC (Howard or Montgomery County) that used to run an offense with a lot of picks. Every time I went to the school I knew that I had to avoid a lot of extra movement at the Lead so I could see all of the screening. I also have less time to talk to coaches in two-man games. I think there is more to take in on the court.

This past summer one tournament had the Oakland Soldiers versus Mac Irvin Fire - in an auxiliary gym. These are two of the top 17U teams in the country and they both will let you know it (with their mouths) from the time they walk into the gym. It was scheduled for two-man, but I worked with my friend and his campers came over that day to work the games at the site three-man. It was a tough game for three officials! The crowd started piling into the gym for that game the game before. A situation occurred where I came onto the court to "deal with" a parent, the tournament director was called in (by me) for a situation, the school cops were almost called to deal with a parent. But it was good basketball and fun!

[JRutledge]

Which Irvin brother was causing the problems in that game?

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Which Irvin brother was causing the problems in that game?

Peace

I had to deal with one of their assistants one time. He looked shocked that I called him out and spoke in such an authoritative/combative tone.