The 3-person battle continues

[rockyroad]

There really is no valid reason for these schools to continue fighting against going three-person...all of the studies done (NBA, NCAA, various State Associations) have shown that three-person crews cut down on the rough play and clean the game up, making it more fun for the fans to watch. The reason thrown around the most often is cost, but even that does not fly as states that have gone to 3-person crews have shown that the cost increases are just not as severe as these people claim.

As for the coaches being against it...they just don't want to have their star players picking up fouls that the third set of eyes would be catching. It means they would have to teach proper defense, proper screens, etc., etc...again, a stupid and selfish reason.

My Tuesday morning rant with Rich.

[Treeguy]

We had a local league that went from 3 to 2 for a year or two to try and save money. They went back to 3 man this year. There was talk of keeping the girls to a 2 man, but there might have been Title IX implications.

[Smitty]

I dislike going back and forth as well. Here you go 2-man or 3-man depending on the size of the schools. The pay is the same for a varsity game, whether you work 2 or 3 man. Sometimes we work 2-man for the JV then add a third for the Varsity. That is a fun adjustment.

[shavano]

Originally Posted by Smitty

I dislike going back and forth as well. Here you go 2-man or 3-man depending on the size of the schools. The pay is the same for a varsity game, whether you work 2 or 3 man. Sometimes we work 2-man for the JV then add a third for the Varsity. That is a fun adjustment.

We're a bit different in CO. There's slightly higher pay for 2 man vs 3 ( for both V and JV/lower levels), but a lot of the schools ( even some of the larger ones in the cities) are either staying with doing 2 man for all levels, or doing like Smitty mentioned and going to a 3 man system for V games only. Definitely a fun adjustment.

[OKREF]

We have 7 classes here. B, A-6A. Only 5A, and 6A have 3 man crews, and they are required to have that by our state association. The coaches at the lower levels say they don't like 3 man, because they think stuff gets missed. They really wouldn't know since they have never had a 3 man crew. I officiate both and any sensible person will say 3 man is so much better.

[rekent]

Originally Posted by OKREF

The coaches at the lower levels say they don't like 3 man, because they think stuff gets missed.

Statements like that make me glad I'm not in OK now - Do they have clue what they're talking about at all?!.

Originally Posted by OKREF

I officiate both and any sensible person will say 3 man is so much better.

But you are referring to coaches here, so...

[rockyroad]

There was a study done by one of the eastern states ( one of the Carolinas I think) that showed that the first year of three person crews, the number of fouls called on average per game went up. In years 2 and 3, the average went down. They attributed it to two things: 1) the coaches and players cleaned it up knowing they could not get away with stuff away from the ball; and 2) the number of " marginal" calls - ones where we didnt have a good luck at the play but called something based on a partial look - went way, way down. The number of calls considered correct went way up.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

There was a study done by one of the eastern states ( one of the Carolinas I think) that showed that the first year of three person crews, the number of fouls called on average per game went up. In years 2 and 3, the average went down. They attributed it to two things: 1) the coaches and players cleaned it up knowing they could not get away with stuff away from the ball; and 2) the number of " marginal" calls - ones where we didnt have a good luck at the play but called something based on a partial look - went way, way down. The number of calls considered correct went way up.

I don't think it was us. We've been using 3 man for all varsity games for over 20 years. It's mandated by the NCHSAA.

Our local also works 3 man for all JV games in the one 3A and two 4A conferences that we work. How else can you prepare officials to work varsity?

[packersowner]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Our local also works 3 man for all JV games

+1

These are some the hardest games to work with two.

[JetMetFan]

I had a public school AD tell me a couple of weeks ago he's going to push for 3-person crews. NYC only does 3-person in the regular season for AA Varsity in Catholic and Private schools, not public (AA is the highest level of ball in NYC/NYS) and his school is AA public. He said he can't see how we call that level of ball with only two people.

My BV assigner suggested to us a few years ago that we should go 3-person in exchange for a cut in pay to help schools deal with the cost. We're at $105 for 2-person. He said we should go $75 for 3-person, meaning it would only cost the schools $15 for the third, the fees would eventually go back up and more people would get Varsity work. Overwhelming majority of officials said no way. I thought - and still think - the folks who said no were nuts.

NYC publics go 3-person starting with the city QF at all levels (AA, A & B). A few years ago NYS actually went back to 2-person crews for the state semis and finals. The organizers said they were having trouble finding enough officials who understood how to work 3-person so they went back to two. It's back to three again.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

How else can you prepare officials to work varsity?

Here, you have to go to camp to learn 3 whistle mechanics and then you have to work summer ball and scrimmages to get noticed by the chapter leadership.

I really wish more places took your local approach.

[egj13]

We do all our Varsity games here in MT with 3-man. In some of the tiny gyms it is almost too many people out there but we do it anyway.

Last year I was doing a JV game in 2-man. The H coach was asking me to watch off ball screens so I said "I'll watch what I can and that is why we have 3 refs at the varsity level to catch that stuff easier". He looks at me and says "all having 3 refs does is make you all lazy. You had 2 refs for all those years and were just fine, now you all are lazy" I swear...

[SCalScoreKeeper]

everything here is done in two man until the quarterfinals of the section playoffs.there are certain tournaments that are done in three man but not very many.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by SCalScoreKeeper

everything here is done in two man until the quarterfinals of the section playoffs.there are certain tournaments that are done in three man but not very many.

Which validates the point of a better officiated game.

[Pantherdreams]

Went to watch a friend coach at a tournament over the summer. Very high clalibre basketball. For some reason games in 1 gym we two man games in a another were 3 man. We went and watched a shoot around where the HC asked their assistant if they were playing the next opponent in a 3man game or two man. As soon as they found out 2 man they implemented/ went to a package they had where all screens were being set in dead zones/ difficult zones that they never even looked at running in the 3 man game.

Coaches . . .

I can get the cost thing for smallers schools (MS/ High School) in rurla areas that have to ship in crews but overall its just a better game with 3.