Clarification on Fouls/False Multiple & False Double

[stickingthe3]

I was hoping that some of you Veterans could shed some light on the above topic for a somewhat Rookie official. As I continue to digest the rule book (NFHS), I am constantly seeking clarification from some of my mentors, co-officials and so forth.

However, this is one of those topics that no one has really been able to provide me an explanation as to what they truly are (layman's terms). I have a great understanding of everything else within 4-19, but just cannot seem to grasp a good understanding of 4-19-9, 4-19-12.

Please help

Thanks and Happy New Year

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by stickingthe3

I was hoping that some of you Veterans could shed some light on the above topic for a somewhat Rookie official. As I continue to digest the rule book (NFHS), I am constantly seeking clarification from some of my mentors, co-officials and so forth.

However, this is one of those topics that no one has really been able to provide me an explanation as to what they truly are (layman's terms). I have a great understanding of everything else within 4-19, but just cannot seem to grasp a good understanding of 4-19-9, 4-19-12.

Please help

Thanks and Happy New Year

Welcome to the Forum.

I am not sure what you are asking. Please give us some specific examples of what is confusing you.

MTD, Sr.

[Triad zebra]

False Double Foul - A1 fouls B1. During the dead ball B2 fouls A2. (This would be a T). If B is in bonus shoot appropriate free throws with line cleared. Then any A player shoots the two for the Technical. A's ball at the division line opposite table.
False Multiple Foul - Same as above, but during the dead ball player A commits a foul (Technical) on B. Team B shoots all necessary free throws with line cleared.
Team B gets ball at division line.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by stickingthe3

I was hoping that some of you Veterans could shed some light on the above topic for a somewhat Rookie official. As I continue to digest the rule book (NFHS), I am constantly seeking clarification from some of my mentors, co-officials and so forth.

However, this is one of those topics that no one has really been able to provide me an explanation as to what they truly are (layman's terms). I have a great understanding of everything else within 4-19, but just cannot seem to grasp a good understanding of 4-19-9, 4-19-12.

Please help

Thanks and Happy New Year

If you're like me, that phraseology "...and at least one of the attributes of...is absent" is throwing you for a loop. I've never heard a good explanation for that.
If the esteemed member who answers this good question could include an explanation of what all that "attribute" stuff is all about, I'd sure appreciate it.

Not sure if this explanation helps, but this sorta does it for me:
What makes these easy for me is to think of the "false" part in comparison to what we'll say is "true". "True" would be if the first foul of a double or multiple foul occurred at the same time as the second. That would be penalized one way. "False" would be if the second foul of double or multiple foul occurred with a time interval of some length after the first. That would be penalized in the order of their occurrences.

Am I on the right track?

[JRutledge]

I have an easy way for you to understand. The "False fouls" are usually fouls you never just "call" on their own. These foul classifications are things that just happen. I would first of all take any multiple foul out of the equation. Call the first or significant foul and leave this alone. No one calls these because it is hard to explain and causes you to give two different players a foul on a situation where one action took place. You want to cause some controversy, call a multiple foul. Otherwise just call what is obvious.

False Double foul is not something you call it happens mostly. They are basically two separate incidents where each foul has their own penalty. An example is you have a shooting a foul and after the foul has been called the player fouled reacts and pushes the defender and is given a T. That is a False Double Foul, but you do not actually call it that way, that is the result of all those actions. You penalize both actions in the order they occur and they each foul has their own penalty. I am not even sure when those happen I even have said, "This is a False Double Foul."

I would not worry about these definitions much as the more you work games the more insignificant they really are other than to explain by rule what happen. Otherwise these are not situations are usually made more complicated than they really are.

Peace

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by Freddy

If you're like me, that phraseology "...and at least one of the attributes of...is absent" is throwing you for a loop. I've never heard a good explanation for that.
If the esteemed member who answers this good question could include an explanation of what all that "attribute" stuff is all about, I'd sure appreciate it.

Not sure if this explanation helps, but this sorta does it for me:
What makes these easy for me is to think of the "false" part in comparison to what we'll say is "true". "True" would be if the first foul of a double or multiple foul occurred at approximately the same time as the second. That would be penalized one way. "False" would be if the second foul of double or multiple foul occurred with a time interval of some length after the first. That would be penalized in the order of their occurrences.

Am I on the right track?

Sounds good ... Also, what makes it a "false" double, usually, the second foul occurs before the clock has been started after the first (one exception being the airborne shooter being fouled by B1 then charging into B2).

[billyu2]

Stickingthe3,
In addition to the examples above, have you checked the corresponding situations in your Casebook? Lots of good examples there that are sure to help you out.

[Camron Rust]

Here is the best way to think of them....

Both false double and false multiples involve two or more independent fouls that occur with the same time showing on the clock but are not actually double fouls (two players against each other at the same instant) or multiple (two fouls by two players against a common opponent at the same instant).

They are usually at different "times" while the clock shows the same game time.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by billyu2

Have you checked the corresponding situations in your Casebook?

False Double:

4.19.9 SITUATION A: A1 leaps high and is fouled by B1 as he/she taps the ball
which subsequently goes through A’s basket. A1 fouls B2 in returning to the floor.
RULING: This is a false double foul. The foul by B1 does not cause the ball to
become dead. However, the player-control foul by A1 does cause the ball to
become dead and also dictates that no goal can be scored. Since the goal is not
scored, A1 is awarded two free throws for the foul by B1. No players are allowed
along the lane as Team B will be awarded the ball following the last free throw. If
the last throw is successful, the throw-in is from anywhere along the end line. If
the last throw is unsuccessful, the throw-in is from a designated spot nearest the
foul. (4-1; 4-11; 4-41-1; 6-7-7 Exception c: 6-7-4; 7-5-4a)

4.19.9 SITUATION B: B1 holds A1, whose team is in the bonus. A1 is successful
in both free-throw attempts. While B1 is making the throw-in from behind
the end line, A1 pushes B2 near midcourt. Team B is or is not in the bonus situation.
RULING: If Team B is in the bonus, B2 is either awarded a one-and-one and
the ball remains in play if either free-throw attempt touches the basket ring but is
not successful, or is awarded two free throws and the ball remains in play if the
second is unsuccessful. If the last free-throw attempt by B2 is successful, Team
A shall put the ball in play from out of bounds anywhere along the end line by B’s
basket. If Team B is not in the bonus, it is awarded the ball for a throw-in from a
designated spot out of bounds nearest to where the foul occurred. Penalties are
administered in the order in which the fouls occurred. (7-5-4a)

4.19.9 SITUATION C: A1 has a breakaway lay-up. B1 commits a hard foul
against A1 from behind and is called for an intentional foul. The Team A head
coach protests, feeling the foul should have been a flagrant foul and is assessed
a technical foul. RULING: Award A1's goal if successful. A1 shall receive two free
throws with the lane spaces cleared. Any Team B player is then awarded two free
throws for the technical foul. Team B will be awarded the ball for a throw-in at the
division line opposite the scorers table.

False Mutiple:

4.19.12 SITUATION: B1 fouls airborne A1 who is in the act of shooting. Before
airborne shooter A1 returns one foot to the floor, he/she is fouled by B2 who has
moved into A1’s landing area. The ball: (a) does; or (b) does not, enter the basket.
RULING: This is a false multiple foul and each foul carries its own penalty. In
(a), the goal is counted and A1 is awarded one free throw for each foul. In (b), A1
is awarded two free throws for each foul. (10 Penalty 6, 7)

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by Freddy

If you're like me, that phraseology "...and at least one of the attributes of...is absent" is throwing you for a loop. I've never heard a good explanation for that.
If the esteemed member who answers this good question could include an explanation of what all that "attribute" stuff is all about, I'd sure appreciate it.

Not sure if this explanation helps, but this sorta does it for me:
What makes these easy for me is to think of the "false" part in comparison to what we'll say is "true". "True" would be if the first foul of a double or multiple foul occurred at the same time as the second. That would be penalized one way. "False" would be if the second foul of double or multiple foul occurred with a time interval of some length after the first. That would be penalized in the order of their occurrences.

Am I on the right track?

I think the biggest difference between false and "true" is that the clock doesn't start in between. Ie- a true double foul would be two players that foul each other at the same time. Whistle sounds, report a personal foul for each player, penalties offset so you go to point of interruption. The false double foul would be when A fouls B when B gets up they push A earning a technical foul. No time has come off the clock between fouls but it wasn't during the same incident. In this case you penalize in the order of occurence, including shooting FTs at one end then going to the other for the technical FTs. A would then get ball at division line. I think I have this all figured out but correct me if I am wrong.

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by PG_Ref

Sounds good ... Also, what makes it a "false" double, usually, the second foul occurs before the clock has been started after the first (one exception being the airborne shooter being fouled by B1 then charging into B2).

Does anybody ever call this?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

Does anybody ever call this?

It's a sasquatch.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

Does anybody ever call this?

Have you ever had a situation where A1 fouls B1, then B1 retaliates and earns a technical foul for pushing A1. That would be an example.

The one I mentioned in another thread was A1 commits a foul, then as the official is walking away to report the foul, A1 commits an unsportsmanlike act and earns a technical foul. This would be a false multiple foul and both fouls are penalized.

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Have you ever had a situation where A1 fouls B1, then B1 retaliates and earns a technical foul for pushing A1. That would be an example.

The one I mentioned in another thread was A1 commits a foul, then as the official is walking away to report the foul, A1 commits an unsportsmanlike act and earns a technical foul. This would be a false multiple foul and both fouls are penalized.

Yes, every so often. I was talking about the specific B1 fouls A1 in the act of shooting who then runs over B2. Do people call and report it this way as a false multiple foul?
Is this the time where you do the double fist in the air?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

Yes, every so often. I was talking about the specific B1 fouls A1 in the act of shooting who then runs over B2. Do people call and report it this way as a false multiple foul?
Is this the time where you do the double fist in the air?

If you call it, you just report them in order. Two free throws for A1, then B gets the ball at the spot of the foul.

And unless you're working FIBA, you'll never put two fists in the air.