False Double Simultaneous Multiple Player-Control Foul

[rainmaker]

A1 is dribbling rapidly toward the basket, gets past the B1. Just before A1 jumps up to shoot, B2 slides across the baseline, and sets to take the charge. A1 veers slightly, starts to pull up (I theorize to the coach afterwards) but is still moving at a pretty good clip. B1 jumps up, and bumps the shooter enough for a foul just as the ball is released. Shooter plows B2, and they all end in a heap out of bounds behind the basket. I blow my whistle, and think push, charge, block, double, shots, out-of-bounds, HELP!!!! The easiest sell is push on B1, and forget the PC. Coach B doesn't like passing up the charge, but can't deny that B1 gave a good solid push. Actually, the whole thing went pretty well. But it got me thinking....

Suppose B1 gives A1 a good push, but I judge that A1 would have "charged" anyway? If both fouls happen while A1 is an airborne shooter, how do you call it, and how is it penalized?

[BktBallRef]

I had one similiar to it in a boys game last Monday. You're best to judge that the foul by B1 caused the PC foul. That's what I did, but mine was easy to sell since the foul by B1 was a riding handcheck in the back.

But if you rule the other way, it's a FDF. There's no basket if A1's shot goes, A1 gets 2 shots with the lane empty, and then B gets the ball for a throw-in.

Oh, and you'll probably have to explain it to both coaches.

[Just Curious]

NF CB 4.19.6 Sit. A I think this will answer your question...
And NF CB 4.19.8 Sit. A confirms what BKTBALLREF said..

[Edited by Just Curious on Nov 25th, 2001 at 01:26 AM]

[Dennis Flannery]

There is no way that you can just say well A was going to charge anyway. Once B1 fouled A1 you had a foul. The airborne shooter is out the window. Call the foul give A1 1 or 2 shots and play on. If anyone ask say yes he would have gotten the charge, but B1 fouled him first. You will get yourself in more trouble by calling anything else.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Dennis Flannery
There is no way that you can just say well A was going to charge anyway. Once B1 fouled A1 you had a foul. The airborne shooter is out the window. Call the foul give A1 1 or 2 shots and play on. If anyone ask say yes he would have gotten the charge, but B1 fouled him first. You will get yourself in more trouble by calling anything else.

In most cases you would be correct - the foul causes all other action to become dead.

However, when the shooter is fouled, play continues, and you do not ignore anything that happens until the shot ends.

If A1 was fouled and then traveled before making the shot, you would wave off the basket because of the travel and give A1 two shots, right?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Dennis Flannery
Once B1 fouled A1 you had a foul. The airborne shooter is out the window.

Realistically you can make that argument. I did in my reply to Juulie. But to make the statement above, by rule you're wrong. An airborne shooter can still commit a PC foul until he returns to the floor, no matter what happens while he is in the air. If I whistled the foul on B1 from C and my partner whistles a PC foul on airborne shooter A1 when he charges into a secondary defender, we have a FDF. By rule, we would have to penalize both fouls.

[Just Curious]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Suppose B1 gives A1 a good push, but I judge that A1 would have "charged" anyway? If both fouls happen while A1 is an airborne shooter, how do you call it, and how is it penalized?

I have been trying to work at holding back on a quick whistle and watch plays actually develop.
As far as good mechanics are concerned.... Lets say the scenario above occurs and we have the FDF... When would you whistle it? After the first, second, or on both fouls?
Thanks!

[Camron Rust]

If you are going to allow A1 the opportunity to complete the shot after the initial foul, you must still hold A1 responsible for contact created by A1. Consideration should be given, however, to whether the intial foul created that contact.

If I've got an obvious slap across shooter A1's arm followed by A1 plowing over B2. It's going to be real hard to not call them both. To ignore either one will have someone upset.

[devdog69]

[/B][/QUOTE]

In most cases you would be correct - the foul causes all other action to become dead.

However, when the shooter is fouled, play continues, and you do not ignore anything that happens until the shot ends.

If A1 was fouled and then traveled before making the shot, you would wave off the basket because of the travel and give A1 two shots, right? [/B][/QUOTE]

Surprised you didn't catch a lot of flak from the comment about A1 being fouled and then traveling before making the shot, waving the basket off and giving him two shots. If this happened I feel certain I would not have a shooting foul, the fact that he took enough steps to travel before shooting but after the foul might indicate to me that it was "on the floor".

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by devdog69
Surprised you didn't catch a lot of flak from the comment about A1 being fouled and then traveling before making the shot, waving the basket off and giving him two shots. If this happened I feel certain I would not have a shooting foul, the fact that he took enough steps to travel before shooting but after the foul might indicate to me that it was "on the floor".

"On the floor" is just a term used to communicate that it is not a shooting foul (like using "and one") - it does not imply that the player was on the floor or, in fact, that it is not a shot attempt if the player is still in contact with the floor.

Perhaps this is a better example: A1 drives to the hoop, jump steps, comes down, and leaps into the air for the shot. While in the air, A1 is fouled by B1, and A1 cannot get the shot off. A1 then comes down to the ground, jumps again and hits the basket.

In this case, A1 has traveled, so he/she gets two shots instead of the basket and one shot.

(Okay, maybe that wasn't a better example . . .)

[BktBallRef]

Nothing wrong with that example.

What far to many officials don't realize is that the shot does not have to be released to have a shooting foul. The most poorly made calls I see in MS and JV games are shooting fouls that are called "on the floor." The NBA has basically the same rule as the NF, yet the NBA officials are the only ones who really allow the shooter to complete normal foot, arm, and hand movements. The two rules are listed below. Tell me, without looking at either rulebook, which rule is the NF and which is the NBA.

If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight.

A field goal attempt is a player's attempt to shoot the ball into his basket for a field goal. The act of shooting starts when, in the official's judgment, the player has started his shooting motion and continues until the shooting motion ceases and he returns to a normal floor position. It is not essential that the ball leave the shooter's hand.

[Mark Dexter]

I had a play Sunday where A1 had an open fast break. B1 is trailing to the hoop when A1 starts to pick up the ball as if he were going for the jump shot. B1 fouls A1 and there's no basket. When I awarded 2 shots to A1, all hell broke loose from B.