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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 02, 2013, 12:33am
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per twitter:

Andy Katz‏@ESPNAndyKatz

From MQ: BE official Karl Hess said officials responsible for wrong direction of players, UConn OT goal tend basket should have counted.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 02, 2013, 12:47am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twocentsworth View Post
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Andy Katz‏@ESPNAndyKatz

From MQ: BE official Karl Hess said officials responsible for wrong direction of players, UConn OT goal tend basket should have counted.
Karl Hess reads the forum?
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Last edited by just another ref; Wed Jan 02, 2013 at 12:53am.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 02, 2013, 01:59am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCHSAA View Post
Wrong basket = not a try = no goaltend
Then uconn should have been given the ball by virtue of team control.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 02, 2013, 03:00am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCHSAA View Post
Wrong basket = not a try = no goaltend
It is only the wrong basket if the teams were going the right directions. Since they started the OT going the wrong way, it was the correct basket until they turned them around.

Thus, it was a try and it was a GT.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 02, 2013, 06:08am
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Karl Hess Post Game Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
Karl Hess reads the forum?
Posted on the UConn Men's Basketball website:

Official's Statement On Play At Beginning of Overtime
Jan. 1, 2013

"Based on rule five, section one, article 3,[NCAA 5.1.3], when the official permits a team to go in the wrong direction, and the the error is discovered, all activity and time consumed is shall count as though the each team had gone in the proper direction. Play is then resumed with each team going in the proper direction.

"The players went in the wrong direction (tonight). Because we* allowed that to happen, the only thing that was wrong is there was a goaltend on the play. We should have scored the goaltend and give Connecticut two points for that.

"You have no team control after that, because you have a shot, so now you got to the alternating possession arrow. Because there is no team control at that point and then Marquette gets the ball and you head them all in the right direction."

Karl Hess BIG EAST Official

* Crew as listed in box score, Mike Stuart, Karl Hess, Michael Stephens

Last edited by KJUmp; Wed Jan 02, 2013 at 10:19am.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 02, 2013, 07:25am
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Hess STILL Doesn't Know the Rule

Did I read his quote correctly? Alternating possession has NOTHING to do with why MU would get the ball!! UConn should have been allowed the score and then give MU the ball based on this event going in the right direction. MU would still have the arrow...DAMN MAN!!!

How can this guy officiate NOT knowing the rules???
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 02, 2013, 08:29am
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It looks to me like the new Lead on the play recognized that the players were going the wrong way. Look at where he is when he makes the GT call. It looks like he was coming out to stop play anyway. He made it to the end line, then starts walking out toward the Trail official. When the drive starts, he stops and officiates the play three steps onto the court.

If he'd just blown the whistle when he realized "something" was wrong. . .
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 02, 2013, 08:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef View Post
The officials erred in allowing the teams to line up and go the wrong way. The GT should score the basket, then turn the teams around and continue play. The crew screwed the pooch.
Agreed with this, as I understand the play. NCHSAA (and the officials on the game, and Karl Hess in his statement) are wrong.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 02, 2013, 09:02am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
It looks to me like the new Lead on the play recognized that the players were going the wrong way. Look at where he is when he makes the GT call. It looks like he was coming out to stop play anyway. He made it to the end line, then starts walking out toward the Trail official. When the drive starts, he stops and officiates the play three steps onto the court.

If he'd just blown the whistle when he realized "something" was wrong. . .
He wasn't sure.

He moved to his proper mechanics spot after he the outcome of the toss. After he was on/near the base line, he was likely 97% sure of the error, but knew it'd be a reeeeeeally bad call if he was wrong (his only correct decision on the play). And in the time he took (likely around 2-3 seconds) to check, the drive started coming toward him, so he let it go. He clearly signaled for the GT call, which should have stuck, and the non-scoring team a TI under the appropriate basket.

So the crew screwed up the rule there. They should have all met together and discussed what happened and how to proceed. Each official gets a voice.


Also watch the U1 position after the toss. He takes a small step backwards after he sees black obtain the jump. He thinks he's going to the L spot. But when he see black go the other way, and everyone else too, he sorta fades away. He never becomes the slot, and stays out of the video range the whole time. So he likely knew something was up too. But I'd say less than 97%. If he was 100% sure, he would have whistled play before the drive and set things straight.

It appears that the only official who had no clue is the tosser.


This is why every official doesn't just give the status quo thumbs-up. In your dead ball officiating, you assume responsibility as though you're the CC for setting up the play. Examples: the U2 also checks direction, the FJ also checks penalty application, the line judge also checks the score for switching sides at 12 points (or whatever the rule is).
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 02, 2013, 10:13am
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Hopefully everyone checks to ensure the teams are going the proper direction to start the game, second half, OT, etc. Especially when the period starts with a jump ball we need to make sure the game starts properly. This is so easy to do, but we all have lapses in concentration. All 3 bear equal burden for this big mistake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee View Post
He wasn't sure.

He moved to his proper mechanics spot after he the outcome of the toss. After he was on/near the base line, he was likely 97% sure of the error, but knew it'd be a reeeeeeally bad call if he was wrong (his only correct decision on the play). And in the time he took (likely around 2-3 seconds) to check, the drive started coming toward him, so he let it go. He clearly signaled for the GT call, which should have stuck, and the non-scoring team a TI under the appropriate basket.

So the crew screwed up the rule there. They should have all met together and discussed what happened and how to proceed. Each official gets a voice.


Also watch the U1 position after the toss. He takes a small step backwards after he sees black obtain the jump. He thinks he's going to the L spot. But when he see black go the other way, and everyone else too, he sorta fades away. He never becomes the slot, and stays out of the video range the whole time. So he likely knew something was up too. But I'd say less than 97%. If he was 100% sure, he would have whistled play before the drive and set things straight.

It appears that the only official who had no clue is the tosser.


This is why every official doesn't just give the status quo thumbs-up. In your dead ball officiating, you assume responsibility as though you're the CC for setting up the play. Examples: the U2 also checks direction, the FJ also checks penalty application, the line judge also checks the score for switching sides at 12 points (or whatever the rule is).
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 02, 2013, 10:23am
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NFHS 4-5-4

If by mistake the officials permit a team to go the wrong direction, when discovered all points scored, fouls committed, and time consumed shall count as if each team had gone the proper direction. Play shall resume with each team going the proper direction based on bench location.

Seems the goaltending should have counted, Marquette ball, possession arrow to Marquette.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 02, 2013, 11:06am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OKREF View Post
NFHS 4-5-4

If by mistake the officials permit a team to go the wrong direction, when discovered all points scored, fouls committed, and time consumed shall count as if each team had gone the proper direction. Play shall resume with each team going the proper direction based on bench location.

Seems the goaltending should have counted, Marquette ball, possession arrow to Marquette.
Correct. It was the officials' screw-up. In this case you wouldn't penalize the players for the officials' mistake.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 02, 2013, 11:06am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OKREF View Post
NFHS 4-5-4

If by mistake the officials permit a team to go the wrong direction, when discovered all points scored, fouls committed, and time consumed shall count as if each team had gone the proper direction. Play shall resume with each team going the proper direction based on bench location.

Seems the goaltending should have counted, Marquette ball, possession arrow to Marquette.
While the NCAAM rule may be exactly the same (I have no idea), citing a high school rule for a college play is not really relevant.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 02, 2013, 11:11am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
While the NCAAM rule may be exactly the same (I have no idea), citing a high school rule for a college play is not really relevant.
It is relevant to those of us who don't call college and might have this play come up. Or is this situation limited to only the NCAA?
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 02, 2013, 11:17am
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Originally Posted by OKREF View Post
It is relevant to those of us who don't call college and might have this play come up. Or is this situation limited to only the NCAA?
I agree that it is absolutely relevant to an equivalent high school play. I was just saying in the context you wrote it, it had no relevance because you drew a conclusion for the college scenario based on a high school rule reference.
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