how many fouls is too many?

[maroonx]

I did a JV game and in the first half we called 42 fouls. 5th year officiating for both me and my partner. Both teams were pressing hard. Lots of arm barring, hand checking, reaching. I was banging them everytime to send a message. Lost of displacement and redirecting by defenders with body hands, elbow forearms.

At half time my partner was saying that some of those fouls should be let go because the offensive player would of not lost the ball or would of gone pass the defender.

There were some officials in the locker room getting ready for the varsity game after and was telling us that we called way too many fouls. The guy said he was counting them. It seems the discussion was like let things go, calling to many fouls extends the game etc. Needless to say, 2nd half not that much pressing.

Maybe I am over thinking this but I get on the floor and if it is a long game I am there to call it no matter how many fouls or how long. I read somewhere in the NHFS rule book, that we are suppose to call the game regardless of score or situation in the game. After each game I work, I wont to come out of it that I call the perfect game.

[referee50]

very hard to say without actually being there, although it does seem like a lot

[grunewar]

Sometimes games can be a train wreck. As officials, you call what you see. The players should adjust to how you call the game - that is, if they want to continue to play in the game. If the D is too tight and players continue to press, play D right up against the offense, or continue to trap and reach, etc., there may be problems.

I did a GV game a few yrs back where one team was in the bonus ~ 4:00 into the the 1st qtr. It happens.

That being said, there's nothing wrong with asking yourself the question. Every game is a live and learn opportunity. Would you do anything different if you could?

[DRJ1960]

Can't remember whose motto "What you permit, you promote" is, but it is accurate. When we allow too much (whatever that is) physical play, that can lead to much worse than a "long game".

[DrPete]

Some times there are situations when the offensive player is driving by the defender and he is bumped/pushed/hand checked or whatever, BUT the player continues his drive to the basket and scores. If you called a foul on a play like that (before he began his shooting motion), then you are effectively helping the defender and penalizing the offense.

The same thing can happen on a fast break, where you could ignor a little defensive contact if the offensive player can continue down the court and score.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by maroonx

I did a JV game and in the first half we called 42 fouls. 5th year officiating for both me and my partner. Both teams were pressing hard. Lots of arm barring, hand checking, reaching.

I seriously hope that you didnt use the term "reaching" while doing that game.

[eyezen]

Originally Posted by maroonx

I did a JV game and in the first half we called 42 fouls. 5th year officiating for both me and my partner. Both teams were pressing hard. Lots of arm barring, hand checking, reaching. I was banging them everytime to send a message. Lost of displacement and redirecting by defenders with body hands, elbow forearms.

At half time my partner was saying that some of those fouls should be let go because the offensive player would of not lost the ball or would of gone pass the defender.

There were some officials in the locker room getting ready for the varsity game after and was telling us that we called way too many fouls. The guy said he was counting them. It seems the discussion was like let things go, calling to many fouls extends the game etc. Needless to say, 2nd half not that much pressing.

Maybe I am over thinking this but I get on the floor and if it is a long game I am there to call it no matter how many fouls or how long. I read somewhere in the NHFS rule book, that we are suppose to call the game regardless of score or situation in the game. After each game I work, I wont to come out of it that I call the perfect game.

First of all pay no attention to those varsity guys. They are worried about one thing and one thing only...their game starting on time and you are holding them up. You partner I would pay more attention to but only to a point, was he sincere or did it seem like you we're keeping him from beer:30?

Without being there we can't have a opinion that means anything but in and of itself the numbers don't mean anything. If the players aren't adjusting so be it. Sounds like they did for the second half.

What you need to recollect is was RSBQ affected? Were your calls matching your partners? (From your post this is the only thing I would question, but at the same time maybe he wasn't calling enough). Only you can answer that.

I would say get a mentor that you trust and have him give you an opinion

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by eyezen

First of all pay no attention to those varsity guys.

...are you serious?

...if so, let me know how that works out for you?

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by eyezen

First of all pay no attention to those varsity guys. They are worried about one thing and one thing only...their game starting on time and you are holding them up.

This is bad advice.

Do varsity officials want to start on time? Of course. But to say that is the ONLY motivation for their comments is a bad assumption.

My association takes evaluations of JV officials pretty seriously. Most of us make a concerted effort to give constructive feedback.

As far as the OP I think you should consider a few things:

42 fouls in one half of basketball is not "a lot" of fouls its is a RIDICULOUSLY high amount. Hard to imagine even in the most physical of contests at the JV level that that many fouls was warranted.

Your partner AND the varsity officials watching ALL thought you had too many whistles. Maybe you were right and they were all wrong but I've usually found that when it's me vs three, four other people maybe I should reconsider my position.

You said you were "banging them every time to send a message." What message are you trying to send? You called a enough fouls to put both teams in the double bonus TWICE. If they don't get the message when the other team is shooting two FTs for every foul then again, what message are you trying to send.

Basketball is a contact sport. There is going to be some level of contact. You have to get some of the things you mentioned but you can also allow players to play through some contact if it's not advantageous.

[zm1283]

Calling fouls when someone breaths on someone else isn't exclusive to JV officials. There are plenty of varsity officials that do the same.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by zm1283

Calling fouls when someone breaths on someone else isn't exclusive to JV officials. There are plenty of varsity officials that do the same.

At what level do you think it is more prevalent?

Here the order of "eliteness" is BV, GV, BJV, GJV. So as a general rule of thumb your BV games are going to have the top crew for any particular set of games.

I remember one day waiting to do my BV game watching the GV crew loligag for an entire game. Not getting teams out of huddles, taking forever to get them lined up for free throws, talking to each other during an injury stoppage and not realizing the injured player had been long ago removed from the court, etc. This was after their game started late b/c they BOTH got the start time wrong (even though the GV games had a standard start time and both officials were veterans).

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

At what level do you think it is more prevalent?

Here the order of "eliteness" is BV, GV, BJV, GJV. So as a general rule of thumb your BV games are going to have the top crew for any particular set of games.

I remember one day waiting to do my BV game watching the GV crew loligag for an entire game. Not getting teams out of huddles, taking forever to get them lined up for free throws, talking to each other during an injury stoppage and not realizing the injured player had been long ago removed from the court, etc. This was after their game started late b/c they BOTH got the start time wrong (even though the GV games had a standard start time and both officials were veterans).

I'm not denying that it's more prevalent at the lower levels. Around here we don't have separate JV/V officials. The schools play doubleheaders and we work both games. You'll occasionally get a varsity game by itself because one of the teams doesn't have enough players for a JV game, but otherwise we work two games. We have separate freshmen games, and I'm sure that is where it is more prevalent in my area.

[rockyroad]

This thread has turned in to a "bash on other crews" thread for some reason...every single one of us posting on this forum has had games where we didn't do a very good job. Let's quit b!tching about other crews and find something that we can learn from from our own games.

Example: had a GV game two weeks ago where we were shooting double bonus both ways with 1:23 to go in the FIRST quarter. At the end of the quarter we got together and we certainly did not discuss whether the boys game was going to start on time or not. We talked about the fact that we really could not pass on these calls. They literally were playing rugby out there. Rest of the game went smoothly because the players adapted and stopped being stupid.

Boys game started about 20 minutes late. But since we were doing the doubleheader that night we really didn't care that much. We were able to keep that first game under control and nothing stupid happened.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by maroonx

I did a JV game and in the first half we called 42 fouls.

I join those who say "had to be there."
Had an early season game with two very aggressive teams a while back. We called 41 total and were criticized by some over that. Went to the video and learned something valuable.
11 "no-calls" which one from one team or the other could argue they'd have wanted a foul on any of those particular plays.
11 "light fouls" some might argue were merely incidental contact and shouldn't have been called.
I don't know that those two stats wash each other out.
Our crew assessed that "keeping it under control" between two very aggressive teams led to the "light fouls", but we agreed upon review that more judicious use of a slower whistle on the part of all of us could've curbed those fouls we could maybe have passed on.
All of this intends to lead up to this question: do you have tape you could review? I know JV doesn't usually do video, which is too bad, because valuable lessons one way or the other come from review.
One such lesson is the analysis of whether there were a lot of whistles on incidental contact.
Still, had to be there.

[JRutledge]

Without video who knows what you should have done. I do know younger officials feel like they need to blow the whistle every time there is some level of contact. That being said I have been in games where I had to call many more fouls than you would think is needed, but if we did not call those fouls we will have more problems.

There is no one-size-fits-all standard. At some point the players should adjust and if they don't, they will not be in the game anymore.

Peace