Excessive Contact

[jeremy341a]

Last night I had an 8th grade girls game. In the 2nd quarter V1 had a breakaway and was being chased by H1. I was the trail when the play began and now moving to be the new lead. When V1 attempted a layup, H1 went for a block. H1 got a ton of ball up top but there was a lot of body contact and some arm on arm contact. Neither player was knocked to the floor or hit the back wall. H1 also did not follow through on the block attempt as there was no contact other than the body and some arm on arm. As I am reporting the foul the V coach was very upset that I didn't call it intentional. Our conversation went as follows:

VC: How is that not intentional? My player is vulnerable and she took her out.

Me: Coach she made a play on the ball. The contact wasn't excessive she didn't even knock her down. She didn't follow through.

VC: That is s**t

You can probably guess how that comment went over.

I understand it is probably a had to be there call but with my description should it have been intentional due to large amount of body contact?

[Adam]

No, but I'd be clearing the lane for A1's free throws.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

...
I understand it is probably a had to be there call but with my description should it have been intentional due to large amount of body contact?

Don't 2nd guess yourself just b/c the coach was an a-hole.

You obviously put a lot of thought into the matter. If you thought it should have been intentional I'm sure you would have been honest and admitted so here in the forum.

[Eastshire]

I'd have a hard time justifying an intentional foul for excessive contact when the contact didn't even prevent A1 from landing on her feet.

The only hard part here is whether or not the technical is flagrant.

[Tio]

I think you are fine... although... how can you have a blocked shot and arm contact? I would not use this verbiage as it is confusing and would only create a flashpoint with a coach who thinks you blew the call anyway. And that is exactly what seemed to happen. And remember, contact is part of the game... you are refereeing the difference between illegal vs. marginal contact.

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

Last night I had an 8th grade girls game. In the 2nd quarter V1 had a breakaway and was being chased by H1. I was the trail when the play began and now moving to be the new lead. When V1 attempted a layup, H1 went for a block. H1 got a ton of ball up top but there was a lot of body contact and some arm on arm contact. Neither player was knocked to the floor or hit the back wall. H1 also did not follow through on the block attempt as there was no contact other than the body and some arm on arm. As I am reporting the foul the V coach was very upset that I didn't call it intentional. Our conversation went as follows:

VC: How is that not intentional? My player is vulnerable and she took her out.

Me: Coach she made a play on the ball. The contact wasn't excessive she didn't even knock her down. She didn't follow through.

VC: That is s**t

You can probably guess how that comment went over.

I understand it is probably a had to be there call but with my description should it have been intentional due to large amount of body contact?

Based on what you said, I think you got it right. 4-19-4

Originally Posted by Adam

No, but I'd be clearing the lane for A1's free throws.

Ditto. Whack

[jeremy341a]

Originally Posted by Tio

I think you are fine... although... how can you have a blocked shot and arm contact? I would not use this verbiage as it is confusing and would only create a flashpoint with a coach who thinks you blew the call anyway. And that is exactly what seemed to happen. And remember, contact is part of the game... you are refereeing the difference between illegal vs. marginal contact.

Good point, I guess I should have said she contacted the ball and the arm. I did not relay that info to the coach, only what I posted in the conversation part.

[jeremy341a]

Ironically enough I did get one of the V's players for an intentional foul in the 4th quarter for a light two hand push in the back when attempting to stop the clock in the final minute of the game.

[jeremy341a]

We shot two free throws with the lane cleared for the V player and then two free throws with the lane cleared on the other end for the H player.

[maven]

May I offer a suggestion for dealing with the coach? You can't prevent coaches from being jerks, but sometimes you can help them redirect their steam.

When I go over there and he asks "How is that not intentional?" make sure you know what he saw. As you report his question, he stated that right away, so my first question for coaches ("What did you see, coach?") he has already answered.

At that point, remember that he's concerned not just about winning and getting an advantage, but also with his players' safety. You might consider leading with that: "Coach, we all want to protect the players, but I saw the defender playing the ball and didn't judge the contact to be otherwise excessive."

I think your answer was good, and probably that coach would have awarded the opponent some free throws anyway, but sometimes when you show you share the concern with safety you can defuse the situation. And it can't hurt: who's going to argue with you about the importance of safety?

[JetMetFan]

You probably could've left it at "Coach, she played the ball and it wasn't excessive." Generally, the less we can talk the better.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Tio

I think you are fine... although... how can you have a blocked shot and arm contact? I would not use this verbiage as it is confusing and would only create a flashpoint with a coach who thinks you blew the call anyway. And that is exactly what seemed to happen. And remember, contact is part of the game... you are refereeing the difference between illegal vs. marginal contact.

I think you meant "incidental" here. Right?

[jeremy341a]

Originally Posted by maven

May I offer a suggestion for dealing with the coach? You can't prevent coaches from being jerks, but sometimes you can help them redirect their steam.

When I go over there and he asks "How is that not intentional?" make sure you know what he saw. As you report his question, he stated that right away, so my first question for coaches ("What did you see, coach?") he has already answered.

At that point, remember that he's concerned not just about winning and getting an advantage, but also with his players' safety. You might consider leading with that: "Coach, we all want to protect the players, but I saw the defender playing the ball and didn't judge the contact to be otherwise excessive."

I think your answer was good, and probably that coach would have awarded the opponent some free throws anyway, but sometimes when you show you share the concern with safety you can defuse the situation. And it can't hurt: who's going to argue with you about the importance of safety?

Good idea. I like it.

[jeremy341a]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

You probably could've left it at "Coach, she played the ball and it wasn't excessive." Generally, the less we can talk the better.

Point taken, thanks.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

Last night I had an 8th grade girls game. In the 2nd quarter V1 had a breakaway and was being chased by H1. I was the trail when the play began and now moving to be the new lead. When V1 attempted a layup, H1 went for a block. H1 got a ton of ball up top but there was a lot of body contact and some arm on arm contact. Neither player was knocked to the floor or hit the back wall. H1 also did not follow through on the block attempt as there was no contact other than the body and some arm on arm. As I am reporting the foul the V coach was very upset that I didn't call it intentional. Our conversation went as follows:

VC: How is that not intentional? My player is vulnerable and she took her out.

Me: Coach she made a play on the ball. The contact wasn't excessive she didn't even knock her down. She didn't follow through.

VC: That is s**t

You can probably guess how that comment went over.

I understand it is probably a had to be there call but with my description should it have been intentional due to large amount of body contact?

From the description alone, I do not have an intentional foul. However, plays like this usually required video or are a "had to be there".

The the coach earned himself a TD for the language.