fight rule

[ronny mulkey]

A couple of years ago our group created a power point presentation on the fight rule. These two main components of the presentation seem to be in conflict with some rulings in our state.

1. You should never shoot f. throws at both ends of the court
2. Bench personnel entering the court to OBSERVE the fight goes in one bucket for tally purposes and the bench personnel that JOIN in the fight gets categorized in another bucket for tally purposes.

For example: A6 and B6 enter the court as a fight breaks out. A6 fights. B6 only observes. Team B would be awarded 2 f. throws because Team A had one more bench personnel fighting than they had fighting. But, Team A would be awarded 2. f. throws because Team B had more team members entering the court to obersve the fight than Team A had entering the court to observe fight. Overall, no f. throws would be shot becaue they offset each other.

Is this how you guys interpret the rule?

[bob jenkins]

It matches my interpretation.

[ronny mulkey]

Bob,

look at this true/false test question:

A1, A2 and B1 begin to fight during a dead ball.
A6, B6 and B7 enter the court without fighting
no f. throws are shot

Is this true or false?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ronny mulkey

Bob,

look at this true/false test question:

A1, A2 and B1 begin to fight during a dead ball.
A6, B6 and B7 enter the court without fighting
no f. throws are shot

Is this true or false?

For the players who fight: 2 T's enforced on A, 1 T enforced on B.

for the players who enter but don't fight: 1 T enforced on each (all are ejected, and 1 foul added to the team total for A, and 2 for B, but in terms of Ts for offsetting, it's one apiece).

So B shoots 2 FTs

[ronny mulkey]

Bob,

For the players on the court - shouldn't Team A be accessed one more technical than Team B for having 2 players fighting to team B's 1 player fighting?

For bench - because the numbers are not corresponding for entering and not fighting would team B not be accessed a maximum of one technical foul?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ronny mulkey

Bob,

For the players on the court - shouldn't Team A be accessed one more technical than Team B for having 2 players fighting to team B's 1 player fighting?

Yes -- I think that's what I said (except the word is "assessed" )

For bench - because the numbers are not corresponding for entering and not fighting would team B not be accessed a maximum of one technical foul?

Good catch. So the number of Ts is now even and no FTs are shot.

[Scratch85]

Is it correct that the head coach gets one indirect technical for each player leaving the bench and participating in the fight and a maximum of one indirect technical for players leaving the bench but not participating in the fight?

Example: Players A6, A7, A8 and A9 all leave the bench. Players A6 and A7 participate in the fight. Players A8 and A9 observe. Three indirect technicals to A's head coach and ejection.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Scratch85

Is it correct that the head coach gets one indirect technical for each player leaving the bench and participating in the fight and a maximum of one indirect technical for players leaving the bench but not participating in the fight?

Example: Players A6, A7, A8 and A9 all leave the bench. Players A6 and A7 participate in the fight. Players A8 and A9 observe. Three indirect technicals to A's head coach and ejection.

Correct.

[Nevadaref]

Unfortunately, the NFHS needs to clarify this section of the rules.

Some areas handle it as your state and Bob interprets, but others will not offset the FTs due to fighters and non-fighters. They are totally separate categories in the rules book and some folks take that as not able to cancel out.

It would be wonderful if the NFHS would issue a clear case play on this.

[tjchamp]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Yes -- I think that's what I said (except the word is "assessed" )



Good catch. So the number of Ts is now even and no FTs are shot.

I am confused now. A1 & A2 fight, as does B1 = 2 FT's for team B. A6 vs B6 & B7 = 1 T for each team and no FT's as they offset. Isn't the end result then still the 2 FT's for team B?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by tjchamp

I am confused now. A1 & A2 fight, as does B1 = 2 FT's for team B.

Correct

A6 vs B6 & B7 = 1 T for each team and no FT's as they offset. Isn't the end result then still the 2 FT's for team B?

Since the numbers of team members leaving are uneven, it's one "T to be administered" against the team with the most. So, here, A will get 2 FTs. These offset against the 2 FTs for B in the first part.

Examples (no fight on the floor, A6 leaves but does not participate in all examples, all the B below leave but do not participate):

B6 leaves: 1 indirect against coach A, 1 indirect against coach B, no FTs (the numbers are even)

B6 and B7 leave: 1 indirect against coach A, 1 indirect against coach B, A shoots 2 FTs (the numbers are uneven)

B6, B7, B8, B9, B10, Trainer B, student manager B all leave; 1 indirect against coach A, 1 indirect against coach B, A shoots 2 FTs (the numbers are uneven -- by how much they are uneven doesn't matter here)

A7, A8, A9 leave (in addition to A6), B6, B7, B8, B9 leave: 1 indirect to each coach, no FTs (the numbers are even)

[tjchamp]

Got it, I was confusing the T's on the players with the indirects on the coach.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

It would be wonderful if the NFHS would issue a clear case play on this.

Here's a handout from our local board interpreter. It's few years old, but I think that the rules still apply:

FIGHTING - RULE & PENALTIES

Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live. Fighting includes, but is not limited to acts such as:
- An attempt to strike, punch or kick an opponent with a fist, hands, arms, leg or feet regardless of whether contact is made.
- An attempt to instigate a fight by committing unsporting acts toward an opponent that causes an opponent to retaliate by fighting.

PLAYERS IN FIGHT:
If A1 and B1 fight during a live or dead ball, they are charged with flagrant technical fouls and disqualified from the game. There are no free throws since this is a double foul. Charge each team with one foul toward the bonus and use the alternating possession arrow to resume play unless there is player/team control.

BENCH PERSONNEL:
a. Leave Bench and Participate in Fight
If a player (or players) leaves the bench during a fight and participates in the fight that player (or players) is charged with a flagrant technical foul and is disqualified. The head coach is charged with an indirect foul for each player who participates in the fight and is disqualified. A team foul is charged for each disqualified player. If the same number of bench personnel leave the bench, there will no free throws.

b. Leave Bench and Do Not Participate in Fight
If a player (or players) leaves the bench during a fight or when a fight may break out and do not fight, they are charged with a flagrant technical foul and disqualified. The head coach is charged with ONE indirect foul regardless of the number of offenders. A team foul is charged for each disqualified player.

SITUATIONS

Play #1 - Bench personnel A1, A2 and B1, B2 leave the bench during a fight and only B2 gets into the fight.
Ruling #1 -
-A1, A2, B1, B2 are charged with flagrant technical fouls and disqualified.
-Team A head coach is charged with one indirect technical foul for A1 and A2 leaving the bench.
-Team B head coach is charged with two indirect technical fouls - one for B1 and B2 leaving the bench and one for B2 fighting.
-Team B and Team A are assessed two team fouls each.
-No free throws
-Resume play with throw-in via alternating possession arrow if no player/team control.


Play #2 – A1,A2, A3 and B1,B2,B3 leave the bench and participate in the fight.
Ruling #2 –
-A1,A2, A3,B1,B2,B3 are charged with a flagrant technical foul and disqualified.
-Team A and Team B head coaches are charged with three indirect technical fouls and disqualified and must leave playing court.
-No free throws are awarded.
-Team A and Team B are each assessed three team fouls
-Resume play via throw-in by team with alternating possession arrow if no player/team control.

Reminders

For Players - Any player(s) who leaves the bench, no matter if they fight or not, are ejected to the bench area, not the locker room. This is a flagrant technical foul on the player(s) and a team foul(s) towards the team total. Example – 3 players leave bench and fight/do not fight. Ruling – 3 player ejections and 3 team fouls.

For Coach – if no fighting by bench personnel; there is only 1 indirect technical foul assessed to coach regardless now many players leave bench and do not fight. Example – 3 players leave bench but do not fight. Ruling – 3 players ejected, 3 team fouls, 1 indirect technical to coach. There is no team foul associated with the indirect technical foul.

For Coach – if fighting by bench personnel; there is an indirect technical foul assessed to coach for EACH player that fights. Example – 3 players leave bench and fight. Ruling – 3 players ejected, 3 team fouls, 3 indirect technical fouls to coach resulting in coach ejection. There are no team fouls associated with the indirect technical foul.

Coaches –
- if head coach leaves bench to help stop the fight, you beckoned head coach;
- if assistant coach(es) leaves the bench, they are charged with a flagrant technical foul and disqualified.
- the head coach is assessed an indirect technical foul for every flagrant foul assessed to an assistant coach(es).

[deecee]

We were always taught in my previous area that each set are treated completely different.

The players on court fighting is one set.
Players leaving and not fighting is another.
Players leaving and fighting is another.

This way we track 3 sets of T's and administer each accordingly as in which ever team has an uneven number for each set shoots.

[Scratch85]

Originally Posted by deecee

We were always taught in my previous area that each set are treated completely different.

The players on court fighting is one set.
Players leaving and not fighting is another.
Players leaving and fighting is another.

This way we track 3 sets of T's and administer each accordingly as in which ever team has an uneven number for each set shoots.

Can you then have FT's at each end? I like the idea of "you should never shoot FT's at both ends of the court" I'm an accountant and that way I get to add up the FT's awarded, cancel out and only administer the remainder. Then draw a double line under my totals and call it balanced!

A confusing issue is that all T's (concerning bench personnel) are not necessarily awarded FT's. (penalties 10-8) By that nature, I don't think it is as easy as adding up the T's or players and then calculating FT's.

I completely agree that each "set" mentioned above are treated differently. But I don't think the rule is written that simply. There is still the application of indirects appiled to HC. I am not sure that "whichever team has an uneven number . . . shoots" is correct.