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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 08, 2010, 10:56pm
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Fight!!!!!!!

Area 6A 1st round - Birmingham, Alabama

Hoover (black) and Spain Park (white) are in town rivals:

YouTube - Spain Park vs. Hoover Basketball Fight

Sooooooo watcha got???

After the fiasco, the referees dumped the big kid for Hoover, 6 Hoover players off the bench, assesed the HC 6 indirect for the players leaving the bench and tossed him too. Hoover ended up with 5 players the rest of the game. The referees also let Spain park shoot 16.....yes 16 free throws - 2 for the original foul 2 for the flagrant on the big fella and 12 for the players on the court.

Now don't shoot the messenger.....that's what the crew did.

And YES I know the first foul isn't a charge...should have been team control or intentional.

Anyhow...just thought I'd share this wonderful moment in area basketball with the world.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 08, 2010, 11:13pm
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I am not a psychologist, but I did stay in a Motel 6 last night.

I think #23 might have some anger management issues.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 08, 2010, 11:20pm
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From the comfort of my couch, I probably would've had an intentional on the original foul. Did the officials deem that the players that came off the bench participated in the fight?
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 08, 2010, 11:20pm
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First off, I would've called that an intentional foul, maybe flagrant depending on the HTBT situation.

Second, I would like to commend the official who decided to step back and let game management and security take over. He also probably stepped back to start taking a visual image of all the players who came from the bench. Some of the guys were easy to spot, as they had their warmup shirt on over their jersey.

I would hope something like this does not happen in one of my games, unfortunately it did happen in a JVB's game last week which I heard about and the officials didn't really do the technicals and all properly (from what i heard, I was not there).

This is a question I ask several different officials, including those that have seen fights break out. How do you know who are the floor players and who are the bench players if something like this were to happen, especially if some bench players are in their jerseys and not in their warmups? Do you go to the book? Even they might not know who are the current players as they just check off who's been in the quarter so far.

Perhaps NFHS might make it mandatory for bench players to wear their warmups or something to distinguish them from floor players? This would be like Pro soccer, where the subs must wear something over their jerseys. But that's because they can run up and down the sideline to warm up before going in, and it could get confusing for players as to who is on the field and who is not.

ADDED: One last thing. I'd like to commend the white team for not having a single player come from the bench. I took a closer look at the end of the video and it looks like the original 5 players were the only on the court, no one from the white team (except maybe for coaches to come in and help break the fight) .
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 08, 2010, 11:30pm
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I felt bad for the kid who got punched. Can't tell if he said something or not, but he tried to retaliate and got nowhere
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 08, 2010, 11:30pm
M.A.S.H.
 
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I've got an intentional on the first foul on 23.

I've watched it a couple times... I'm not even going to get in on the free throws because I can't tell how many came off, who did what, etc.

But I do know that:
For white: 10, 42, 24, 5, 32 (?) are players
For black: 23, 14, 20, 12, 21 (?) are players

White 10, Black 23, Black 15, Black 22 are all ejected.

White ? would have been whacked too for going over and doing that little chest bump with one of the crowd members.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 08, 2010, 11:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjones1 View Post
I've got an intentional on the first foul on 23.

I've watched it a couple times... I'm not even going to get in on the free throws because I can't tell how many came off, who did what, etc.

But I do know that:
For white: 10, 42, 24, 5, 32 (?) are players
For black: 23, 14, 20, 12, 21 (?) are players

White 10, Black 23, Black 15, Black 22 are all ejected.

White ? would have been whacked too for going over and doing that little chest bump with the crowd.
Yeah, you can do that watching a video, but how would you know as an official on the floor who the 10 players are when a fight break out? NFHS doesn't allow you to use video to review it.

Not trying to be cocky, I just want to know what you would do in this case. The bookkeepers might not know if there's been a lot of subbing done in that quarter.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 08, 2010, 11:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derwil View Post
Area 6A 1st round - Birmingham, Alabama

Hoover (black) and Spain Park (white) are in town rivals:

YouTube - Spain Park vs. Hoover Basketball Fight

Sooooooo watcha got???

After the fiasco, the referees dumped the big kid for Hoover, 6 Hoover players off the bench, assesed the HC 6 indirect for the players leaving the bench and tossed him too. Hoover ended up with 5 players the rest of the game. The referees also let Spain park shoot 16.....yes 16 free throws - 2 for the original foul 2 for the flagrant on the big fella and 12 for the players on the court.

Now don't shoot the messenger.....that's what the crew did.

And YES I know the first foul isn't a charge...should have been team control or intentional.

Anyhow...just thought I'd share this wonderful moment in area basketball with the world.
Sound like another instance of the officials not knowing the fighting rules.
This all happened with 28.9 left in the 4th quarter with the home team (I assume White) leading 46-35, so it would not have impacted the outcome.

(I do believe that the crew may have missed a common foul by White #24 along the sideline prior to the altercation.)

My take would be:
A. Flagrant personal foul on #23 Black for the two-handed shove to the back of the opponent's head (White #5). I believe this action warrants more than an intentional personal foul.
B. Flagrant T to #23 Black for striking opponent in the face during the dead ball period. This gets reported as fighting.
C. Retaliation shove by White #10 warrants a technical foul. I don't believe that it has to be considered fighting. This would form a double techinical foul with B.
D. For Black #23, #14, #12, #21, and #20 were players in the game at the time. #22, #34, #15, #10, a couple of coaches, and a team member in a warm-up shirt which covers his number, come off the bench. I don't see any of them actually fight.
E. The penalties for D is that all from the bench are DQ'd, ONE indirect to the HC, and TWO FTs to the opponent.
F. Summary: Black #23 is DQ'd, along with all non-players listed in D. White #5 shoots 2 FTs (A). No FTs for double T (B and C). Anyone from White shoots 2 FTs (D). White's ball at the division line opposite the table.


How does a crew of three varsity officials mess up this situation that badly?
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 08, 2010, 11:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by representing View Post
Yeah, you can do that watching a video, but how would you know as an official on the floor who the 10 players are when a fight break out? NFHS doesn't allow you to use video to review it.

Not trying to be cocky, I just want to know what you would do in this case. The bookkeepers might not know if there's been a lot of subbing done in that quarter.
It's tough and you may not know. You might know a few of the players who were in, but likely not all five. Some scorers keep a running list of who is in the game at any point, but most do not. At the NCAA level this record is available, if there is electronic score-keeping.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 08, 2010, 11:44pm
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Fully realizing the video can't show it all I didn't see bench players for black fighting so the coach probably shouldn't have been dumped. If true then the FTs were not handled properly either.

Would anyone disagree that the original foul was flagrant?
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 08, 2010, 11:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
It's tough and you may not know. You might know a few of the players who were in, but likely not all five. Some scorers keep a running list of who is in the game at any point, but most do not. At the NCAA level this record is available, if there is electronic score-keeping.
So its highly possible that if the player on the floor is not in a warmup and despite their being more than 5 from one team on the floor that you can't eject them unless they are actually fighting?
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 08, 2010, 11:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjones1 View Post
I've got an intentional on the first foul on 23.

I've watched it a couple times... I'm not even going to get in on the free throws because I can't tell how many came off, who did what, etc.

But I do know that:
For white: 10, 42, 24, 5, 32 (?) are players
For black: 23, 14, 20, 12, 21 (?) are players

White 10, Black 23, Black 15, Black 22 are all ejected.

White ? would have been whacked too for going over and doing that little chest bump with one of the crowd members.
I don't agree that W10 deserves a flagrant. A T, yes, but after taking a smack to the face, he merely pushed the offender. A DQ for him is not in proportion to the action.

I can agree with a T for the crowd interaction (taunting) by the player from White.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 08, 2010, 11:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spence View Post
So its highly possible that if the player on the floor is not in a warmup and despite their being more than 5 from one team on the floor that you can't eject them unless they are actually fighting?
Not sure what others will say, but in the aftermath if it is possible you can segregate any players still on the bench from those who went on the court. Then you get who you know were players at the time, then you can ask who was on the court at the time and go from there.

Bottom line, get the teams separated and take your time to get everything, including the penalties, as right as you possibly can.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 08, 2010, 11:53pm
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10-4-5

Coach wasn't beckoned on from what i can see in the video. He get's a Techincal foul.

Player left bench during a fight, all of them at DQ'd regardless. For each offender that gets involved with a fight, that's an additional Technical. All the player that left the bench, I don't think they got involved with fighting, but only came on to calm things down. Only one T is given to bench, which is also an Indirect to the coach. Coach now has one T on himself and an indirect from bench.

Since white doesn't seem to have anyone leaving bench, you shoot two FTs only and ball is at POI.

Did I read this right accordingly to the rulebook? I hope you guys are proud of me for actually opening up a rulebook now before running my mouth haha.
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 08, 2010, 11:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spence View Post
So its highly possible that if the player on the floor is not in a warmup and despite their being more than 5 from one team on the floor that you can't eject them unless they are actually fighting?
First, let's correct a few things in your post to make it readable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spence View Post
So it's highly possible that if the team member on the floor is not in a warm-up, and despite there being more than 5 from one team on the floor, that you can't eject them unless they are actually fighting?
Now, if I understand your point, you are contending that a team member off the bench, who isn't observed fighting, might get away with the disqualifying offense of leaving the bench area because with only his uniform on, not a warm-up top, he would look like a player.

There is much truth in that.
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