Who's calling 'palming' on this video

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If Ray Charles was a basketball official, and if he were alive, he would call that a carry. If Stevie Wonder was a basketball official, he would call that a carry. Just sayin'.

And what rule reference would these blind musicians use to justify calling that play a violation?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

And what rule reference would these blind musicians use to justify calling that play a violation?

I think Billy is talking about the second video, not the OP.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

And what rule reference would these blind musicians use to justify calling that play a violation?

4-15 ART. 1 A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats
(intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once
or several times. It is not a part of a dribble when the ball touches a player’s own
backboard.
ART. 2 During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is
permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s).
ART. 3 The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball
to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.
ART. 4 The dribble ends when:
a. The dribbler catches or causes the ball to come to rest in one or both
hands.
b. The dribbler palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or
both hands.
c. The dribbler simultaneously touches the ball with both hands.
d. The ball touches or is touched by an opponent and causes the dribbler to
lose control.
e. The ball becomes dead.

9-5 A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

4.15.4 SITUATION A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid
guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball
from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an
attempt to continue the dribble. RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the
dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred.
(9-5)

4.15.4 SITUATION B: A1, while advancing the ball by dribbling, manages to
keep a hand in contact with the ball until it reaches its maximum height. A1 maintains
such contact as the ball descends, pushing it to the floor at the last moment;
however, after six or seven bounces, A1’s hand is in contact with the ball and the
palm of the hand on this particular dribble is skyward so that the ball is resting
on top of the hand. RULING: The dribble has ended and a violation occurs if A1
dribbles again. The dribble ended when the ball came to rest in the palm of A1’s
hand. (9-5)

[rockyroad]

And none so those things happened in the OP video...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

It's silly to you because you are familiar, and are aware of, the similarities, and differences, between at least two different rule sets. Every year IAABO gives us a card that lists the differences between NFHS, and NCAA, rules. I never even look at the card because I only care about NFHS rules. Until you told me that a carry in high school is the same as a carry in college, I didn't know that. Now I do, so if I ever have a dream, or a nightmare, that I'm officiating an NCAA game, then I guess I'll call this a carry. Keep in mind that the original video was from an NBA game. Other than watching a few Celtics games every year on television, I have no interest at all in NBA games, and thus I have no interest in, or knowledge of, NBA rules, which why I stated my interpretation for a high school game scenario, not an interpretation relating to the NBA video.

Well considering that NF interpreted a carry was "more than a handshake" I did not see that in this video quite that way. The ball on some level is going to come to rest in most dribbler's hand at some point and this just does not pass the smell test for me. There are such things as legal hesitations dribbles. If you only care about NF rules, then it seems really silly to comment on what other levels do when you are not aware. Just so you know, the rules on this are basically the same at all levels of basketball. Heck most rules are the same if you want to know the truth.

I also think that high school officials often try to call any little infraction without really taking a look at the bigger picture of the game. Not saying that is you, but you did point out what you would do in a HS game as if the other levels would do or would be instructed differently. Just pointing out that this is not true.

Peace

[Twinfan]

I would call it if I thought the action was a violation and, in this case presented by the OP, if the violation gained the attacker an advantage over the defender. As most guys have said, there seems to be a marginal case to be made that the move was a violation. However, I'm a bit suspicious that the angle of the video might not be giving us enough information. It looks possible to me that at the top of the dribble the attacker slightly repositioned his hand so that the ball was momentarily supported by his two bottom fingers. At that point, he seems to beat the defender with a sudden change of direction.

If I were on the floor and the attacker made the described hesitation move but was also able to manipulate the ball sideways by supporting the ball momentarily in order to beat the defender, I would call it. If he changed the ball's direction without supporting the weight of the ball, no call. For me, this one is "had to be there" and it will be all about the angle that you have on viewing the path of the ball.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Twinfan

If the violation gained the attacker an advantage over the defender ... a marginal case to be made that the move was a violation ... not be giving us enough information.

Throughout my thirty-two years of officiating, I've had many occasions where a player has made a move, as demonstrated in the original video, that caught me by surprise. I've usually "passed" on such a "gray area" call, but filed it back in my brain to be more observant when that player tries such a move later in the game. If the player tries it again, I can be ready to get a really good look at it, apply the rule, apply the philosophy of advantage/disadvantage, see the whole play, and either pass on the play again, or sound my whistle for a violation.

In some cases, if the opportunity presents itself, I may say to the player's coach, usually an assistant coach, during a timeout, "I don't like 32's crossover move. It may be a carry. I'm going to try to get a good look at it", so that if I decide to call the violation, the coach is prepared for the call. I know that some of you guys don't like talking to coaches, and I've been criticized for doing so in the past by local observers, but at this point in my career, I'm not going to change, and most of the coaches seem to appreciate my open communication with them.