Palming

[mcdanrd]

I had a friendly disagreement with a partner between games on Saturday. It had to do with palming/travel and high dribble. After the game, I reread Point of Emphasis 4 on page 66 of the NFHS Rules Book. I was under the impression that a high dribble was just that, a dribble. The PoE makes it sound like a player can palm/travel the ball with his/her palm facing the floor. I understand that there is sometimes the appearance of a ball coming to rest with the palm down, but I guess my question is, Given the laws of physics, is that possible? and, how do you determine whether it's simply a high dribble or a travel?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by mcdanrd
I had a friendly disagreement with a partner between games on Saturday. It had to do with palming/travel and high dribble. After the game, I reread Point of Emphasis 4 on page 66 of the NFHS Rules Book. I was under the impression that a high dribble was just that, a dribble. The PoE makes it sound like a player can palm/travel the ball with his/her palm facing the floor. I understand that there is sometimes the appearance of a ball coming to rest with the palm down, but I guess my question is, Given the laws of physics, is that possible? and, how do you determine whether it's simply a high dribble or a travel?

The high dribble is just that, a high dribble, unless the hand gets under the ball. The POE is addressing the play where A1 may go up on his tiptoes, give a slight hesitation, and then return the ball to the floor. Usually the ball ends up spinning in the dribbler's hand or he does a quick little wrist flick. Palming.

[mick]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef

The high dribble is just that, a high dribble, unless the hand gets under the ball. The POE is addressing the play where A1 may go up on his tiptoes, give a slight hesitation, and then return the ball to the floor. Usually the ball ends up spinning in the dribbler's hand or he does a quick little wrist flick. Palming.

Tony,
I agree regarding the high dribble; I still get a chuckle with that tippy-toe description, though.
mick

[Brian Watson]

I think the determining factor is did the ball come to rest? This can hppen with a palm down, and can easilly happen with a high dribble.

Use the old volleyball maxim, ugly doesn't mean it's wrong.

[rainmaker]

What I've been watching for is forward or sideways control. If the ball bounces hard, but the hand is directly above and not very high, the ball can push pretty long against the hand, but to me that's not palming. However, if the ball moves sideways, or forward during that time, or the hand rotates it's position on the ball, that gets pretty borderline. I think of the hand like that old (dinosaur-era) computer game called Pong. There was that little cursor that had to contact the ball. Control is the point, but the contact needs to be not much longer than how long the cursor used to toucht he ping-pong ball. Remember a dribble is a bat or a hit, not a throw.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Remember a dribble is a bat or a hit, not a throw.

But the dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor.

[Bart Tyson]

AKA; Allen Iverson dribble

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Remember a dribble is a bat or a hit, not a throw.

Agree with bktballref - in fact, a dribble is most often a controlled push, not a bat or a hit. I would never teach my players to bat or hit the ball.

The new palming interpretations are all over the place. We had four called this weekend, the first called in six games, called on three different guards, and only one of which I would agree with. I warned the team at halftime after we had two in the first half, and we still got two in the second. On both, I saw change of direction exactly as I would teach it. I couldn't have expected the players to do it any differently and I couldn't tell them to be more careful.

I think this has been one of the worst POE in a while. Nobody sees it the same, and dribbling has to be second nature to your ball handlers. It is impossible to adjust this part of the game to the personal preferences of the refs. I can deal with different readings of handchecks and my players can adjust. But this palming thing is really hard for coaches and players.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

Agree with bktballref - in fact, a dribble is most often a controlled push, not a bat or a hit. I would never teach my players to bat or hit the ball.

The new palming interpretations are all over the place.

Yes, push would be a better word than bat or hit, I guess what I look for is the throw. Which implies a catch first. Okay on the first bounce, but not okay after that.

New interpretations ARE all over the place. I see a very wide variety of calls in my partners, and in games I watch. Hawks Coach, as an astute observer of the youth basketball scene, from a variety of angles, what kind of wording or description could we use that would help narrow this down a little??

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

I think this has been one of the worst POE in a while. Nobody sees it the same, and dribbling has to be second nature to your ball handlers. It is impossible to adjust this part of the game to the personal preferences of the refs. I can deal with different readings of handchecks and my players can adjust. But this palming thing is really hard for coaches and players.

The problem with this POE is two fold.

1- To call it properly, every official has to call it. It's become such an accepted thing that it's impossible to correct.

2- To properly change the culture, it has to be called every single time. At the beginning of the season, we were calling 10 to 12 every game. That's the type of officiating that it would take to make a change.

Neither 1 or 2 will ever happen.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Hawks Coach, as an astute observer of the youth basketball scene, from a variety of angles, what kind of wording or description could we use that would help narrow this down a little??

It clearly is not a question of guidance to coaches and players, but rather one of consistent rule enforcement. bktballref has beat me to the punch a bit, and I think he is correct on lack of enforcement by many officials. But I think he misses the other side of the point a bit as well. I believe that there are refs that are way over on the other side of this and calling palming where it does not exist. Rather than emphasize a finer point of the game to players, it confuses them and leaves them grasping for a standard. I can read the rule and when I see a player do something that I believe is legal and in the eyes of another it is illegal, we need to have a consensus as to what the rule really means. I think some call it with regard to how long the hand has contact with the ball, regardless of what the ball does.

If you maintain a consistent down and sideways motion with the hand (and the ball under the hand), extended contact with the ball is perfectly legal. When you get that horizontal movement of the ball with nothing downwards, you should have a palm. Only one of the four calls we had this last weekend met the latter criteria. I thought the first call was a great use of the POE, but the other three were way beyond any definition of palming that I can find. On the two second half calls, the dribblers were heading straight toward me and I had a very clear view. And, of course, as bktballref notes, in almost any other game this winter we get away with all four.

My feeling is that the old way of interpreting the rule, i.e., have to have a hand below the centerpoint of the ball, may have allowed too much but at least it was more cleanly enforceable. If you are going to have a POE like this, the refs need more training on exactly what NF is looking for in palming calls. If we have a consistently enforced standard, the good coaches will be able to teach to it.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

It clearly is not a question of guidance to coaches and players, but rather one of consistent rule enforcement.

If you maintain a consistent down and sideways motion with the hand (and the ball under the hand), extended contact with the ball is perfectly legal. When you get that horizontal movement of the ball with nothing downwards, you should have a palm.

I agree with everything you say, especially the part about consistency. The only consideration I would add is that some players CAN hold the ball with their hand completely on top, or squeeze the ball between the hand and the wrist. This is the play that refs are aiming at when they use length of contact as a definition. I don't think it takes a lot of effort to learn to recognize the differences between these various legal and illegal moves. And this kind of palming is never an issue at levels where the hands are too small to pull it off. But I think more consistent enforcement will happen when the wording is better in the rule book, especially in describing the POE.

[Hawks Coach]

Every one of my guards can (and WILL NOT as long as they play for me) do the Allen Iverson 360 degree spin move where they never have their hand under the ball, they never pin it or squeeze it. It is simply the speed of the lateral motion that allows the ball to stay up, similar to spinning a bucket upside down without spilling any water. The amount of lateral motion players are getting has changed considerably in the past few years. That is what I think they were after with this focus on palming.

I teach crossover dribbles with an emphasis on a low release to the floor. It is this basic crossover that keeps the hand in contact for a long distance (as compared to a normal dribble) as the ball approaches the floor. But it is a steady push in one constant down and sideways direction. It is not a palm, yet was consistently called as one this weekend. Guards spend hours perfecting that til it is second nature, and need it for a good, quick, controlled change of direction under heavy ball pressure. I expect them to dribble without even concentrating on the fact they are dribbling, because they need awareness of so much else. It is too much to expect them to alter a good fundamental dribbling habit in a game because the ref has decided that for this day, that will be palming. Those kind of calls not only disrupt the flow at that moment, but disrupt the concentration of those players most responsible for maintaining a good offensive flow to the game. I ultimately told my guards to just keep playing and ignore the palming calls because thinking about them only causes other turnovers, and I couldn't give them any constructive advice on how to adjust to the calls during the game.

This is just one example of what I consider to be a difficult problem with this particular POE.

[BktBallRef]

At the same time, I don't think the coach and I are too far apart.

Just because it is a "steady push in one constant down and sideways direction" does not mean it is not palming. What happens many times is that the ball is cupped just before the push. That's where the palming comes in.

But more evident is that if the dribbler is dribbling the ball sideways, he's carrying the ball. It's impossible not to carry it. He's not batting the ball to the floor. The hand is staying in contact with the ball for an extened period of time. Sideways, by defintion means from the side. If there's more sideways than down, you're going to see palming called. That happens when the hand is on the ball on the dribble is less than 45 degrees to the floor.

Unfortunately, it is up to the individual official as to how much he let's the dribbler get away with, since the call is so loosely interpeted. If they aren't going to change their style, the best thing to do is to tell your kids to ignore it, and just accept the turnover when it's called.

Our crew is basically calling the hand under the ball. When I say under the ball I mean 3 o'clock to 6 o'clock. We're also calling the "Rocking Dribble," the cupped dribble that goes back and forth, and "Carrie Baby Dribble!", the dribble that starts out on one side of the body, never touches the floor or leaves the hand and ends up on the other side of the body. But believe me, we're passing on more than we're calling.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Feb 21st, 2001 at 12:02 AM]