On the shot or not

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tref

Why? As I said, it was a really long weekend, just got back from camp (9 games in 2.5 days, 105 degrees everyday) & I'm not really up for the 7-9 posters that like to jump me just because I share principles that they havent heard yet.

I worked 13 games this weekend for three (after coming back from a funeral of a close family friend and driving over 3 hours to work on Friday) with some of the best girls basketball that you or I will ever see in one setting. Almost every D1 program you can imagine was in attendance and coaches going nuts from everything to not how to request a timeout to "Google me..." and you are worried about not being able to explain your position? Really dude???

Originally Posted by tref

APG knows of many of the principles I speak of & for some reason when he says the same things I say, nobody says boo.

APG is very articulate and points out his positions. I should not have to have him explain something you stated. He is not in this conversation, you are. I just was trying to understand what you meant and I have no reason to think you are not correct. It sounds like you are a little too sensitive.

Originally Posted by tref

I'll just say it falls under team officiating & I know how the majority of the board feels about THAT. Quite honestly, you use the word "higher levels" so I really thought this was something you were aware of as it has been around for the last 3-4 years...

Well I am just coming off of a month that I worked every day at someone's camp as a clinician and I honestly have no idea what issue that you are trying to make here. And I am sure it is a valid point, but I guess we will never know because you have a stick up your behind and worried about what someone is going to say to you. The sad thing they might say, "Yeah, I can see that."

Peace

[tref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And I am sure it is a valid point, but I guess we will never know because you have a stick up your behind and worried about what someone is going to say to you. The sad thing they might say, "Yeah, I can see that."

I highly doubt it, as it seems like I am 0 for 30 when sharing principles that havent trickled down to the HS level & apparently some small college leagues yet.

As for your negative comments about me as a person, its not that at all. I'm in a great mood & really would like for it to stay this way on a Monday morning after a 7 hr drive home last night.

Me passing on breaking down why its ok for a non-calling official to provide info (the player started his habitual motion) to the calling official when he puts him on the ground as opposed to on the FT line is called being smart by not allowing myself to get caught up in Forum debates that turn sour by name calling due to ignorance.

If you have not heard of a partner telling the calling official "he had him going up" be patient, its coming to a City near you soon. If you dont want to wait, try going to some camps out of your region or at higher levels than you normally attend.
At the end of the day the calling official still has the decision to change it or keep it the same or even worse ask "are you sure."

Afterall, isnt putting a player on the floor when he should be shooting a misapplication of the rules, by rule? Either that or their judgment is just cloudy or they "think" the players arms have to be moving in an upward motion or whatever that bs myth is.

You certainly would provide info when your partner attempts to shoot FTs on an offensive (PC or TC) foul... wouldnt ya?
When the L administers the FT & says 2 when its really 3 or 1 you would provide info from the C or T... wouldnt ya?
When the AP arrow isnt working or you know the table missed switching it, you would provide that info to official administering the incorrect throw-in (before the throw-in is complete) wouldn't ya?

Just a team officiating concept man. Because they paid for a CREW of 3 that works together not 3 individuals letting each other live & die with incorrect decisions that ruin the GAME.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

I highly doubt it, as it seems like I am 0 for 30 when sharing principles that havent trickled down to the HS level & apparently some small college leagues yet.

As for your negative comments about me as a person, its not that at all. I'm in a great mood & really would like for it to stay this way on a Monday morning after a 7 hr drive home last night.

Me passing on breaking down why its ok for a non-calling official to provide info (the player started his habitual motion) to the calling official when he puts him on the ground as opposed to on the FT line is called being smart by not allowing myself to get caught up in Forum debates that turn sour by name calling due to ignorance.

Here's what surprised me, you defaulted to a passive-aggressive response. To paraphrase,
"I'm not going to get into it with you fools because you're too stupid and/or old to get it without calling me names."

I don't always agree with you, but I don't think I've ever called you names. And I know you're not that thin-skinned (you've achieved too high a level of officiating for that to be true) that you'd bow out of a debate before you even got started.

Now, for the record, your clarification doesn't seem that bad to me; as long as your added information is made quietly enough not to back your partner into a corner (he may well have had a significant foul before the gather). And while I would prefer this to be done mostly on double-whistle fouls, I can see situations where a single whistle would still work.

Personally, I'm more likely to offer an encouraging, "Are we shooting, Bill?" as opposed to waiting for him to tell me one way or the other.

[just another ref]

At some point it might be mentioned that the release is not the key.

A guy gathers to shoot, gets hammered, pulls the ball back down as he crashes to the floor. He still gets two shots.

In the OP, what if the guy gets caught in the air behind the board attempting to pass? If he gets fouled, don't bail him out and award shots just because he heaves it up after the contact.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

At some point it might be mentioned that the release is not the key.

A guy gathers to shoot, gets hammered, pulls the ball back down as he crashes to the floor. He still gets two shots.

In the OP, what if the guy gets caught in the air behind the board attempting to pass? If he gets fouled, don't bail him out and award shots just because he heaves it up after the contact.

Agreed, with one caveat. If there is any doubt about his intent, like Rut, I'm going with a shot. Fouling a guy on his way down the lane is one thing, but fouling him when he's behind the basket is just bad basketball.

[Adam]

Free throw percentages being as horrific as I've seen them, I'm sometimes surprised at coaches arguing about this call anyway.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Here's what surprised me, you defaulted to a passive-aggressive response. To paraphrase,
"I'm not going to get into it with you fools because you're too stupid and/or old to get it without calling me names."

I don't always agree with you, but I don't think I've ever called you names. And I know you're not that thin-skinned (you've achieved too high a level of officiating for that to be true) that you'd bow out of a debate before you even got started.

Now, for the record, your clarification doesn't seem that bad to me; as long as your added information is made quietly enough not to back your partner into a corner (he may well have had a significant foul before the gather). And while I would prefer this to be done mostly on double-whistle fouls, I can see situations where a single whistle would still work.

Personally, I'm more likely to offer an encouraging, "Are we shooting, Bill?" as opposed to waiting for him to tell me one way or the other.

No sir, I wasnt referencing you as one that loves to smack me around for saying things they have not heard before.
Rocky co-signed it so I doubt we will hear from them on this

On quietly vs loud, I have a mental rolodex of my partners & what they prefer. The ECA (Exclusive Coverage Area) guys I would try to walk by in switching before they get to the table & say it quietly.
Guys that are on board with the program, I'll say it right where I stand because I know they'll say "YEP" without needing to ask & clarify just to reject.

As far as if they had the foul before the gather, they need to call it before the player gets in the act & the ball goes in using some voice to clarify that fact. Making everyone think its an And1 when its really a do over is a sure set up to get the coach, players & crowd all over the crew. That will happen more than enough without the officials doing it to themselves.
So either cal those when they happen or hold the whistle a tad, allowing the player to get in the motion then reward them.

We have to know what animal (level/gender) we are dealing with & I'm learning that we also have to know what type of partner we are dealing with from night to night. As long as the film shows me trying to offer info, I'm okay with a partner rejecting the info & messing up the call consistency. Because when I get a similar play, mine go to the line.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by tref

Rocky co-signed it so I doubt we will hear from them on this

.

Hahahaha...having me co-sign on something with you is a GREAT way to get smacked around by some of the people on this forum!!

[tref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Hahahaha...having me co-sign on something with you is a GREAT way to get smacked around by some of the people on this forum!!

Nah just like myself, they respect what you bring to the table!

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by tref

On quietly vs loud, I have a mental rolodex of my partners & what they prefer. The ECA (Exclusive Coverage Area) guys I would try to walk by in switching before they get to the table & say it quietly.
Guys that are on board with the program, I'll say it right where I stand because I know they'll say "YEP" without needing to ask & clarify just to reject.

After lurking on this one I'm glad to say I finally understand what you're talking about. Maybe it's something used in NCAAM because I haven't heard it on the NCAAW side of things, though I plan to ask about it when I head to camp this weekend.

[tref]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

After lurking on this one I'm glad to say I finally understand what you're talking about. Maybe it's something used in NCAAM because I haven't heard it on the NCAAW side of things, though I plan to ask about it when I head to camp this weekend.

Have fun & do your thing! Let me know what their thoughts are.

Now that I think about it, I was introduced to the principle by a DI/DII womens official a couple years ago.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by tref

Have fun & do your thing! Let me know what their thoughts are.

Now that I think about it, I was introduced to the principle by a DI/DII womens official a couple years ago.

Okay,...this weekend at the BE Women's camp team officiating - specifically saying "you had her shooting?" or things like that was discussed and encouraged. The one thing that seemed to be common was it was suggested to do it quietly (when we're switching) which makes sense.

I can't say it happened in any of my five games. One partner did ask me whether I had someone shooting but I'd already yelled "she was going up!" after I called the foul.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

After lurking on this one I'm glad to say I finally understand what you're talking about. Maybe it's something used in NCAAM because I haven't heard it on the NCAAW side of things, though I plan to ask about it when I head to camp this weekend.

Really? NCAAW is where I heard it...

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Really? NCAAW is where I heard it...

As I think about it I've heard it from NCAAM officials when I work with them in H.S. games. I've yet to hear it from the NCAAW officials but I'll ask around over the weekend.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tref

If you have not heard of a partner telling the calling official "he had him going up" be patient, its coming to a City near you soon. If you dont want to wait, try going to some camps out of your region or at higher levels than you normally attend.
At the end of the day the calling official still has the decision to change it or keep it the same or even worse ask "are you sure."

For the record, I attend camps every year out of state. Not that I need to considering that most of the college I work I work with a D1 official almost every game. Or someone that has had that experience. Save the "You do not understand my level..." crap. Where do you think I have personally met people that have been on this board? It was not on vacation.

I was just looking for your explanation and what you meant. Nothing more, nothing less.

Originally Posted by tref

You certainly would provide info when your partner attempts to shoot FTs on an offensive (PC or TC) foul... wouldnt ya?
When the L administers the FT & says 2 when its really 3 or 1 you would provide info from the C or T... wouldnt ya?
When the AP arrow isnt working or you know the table missed switching it, you would provide that info to official administering the incorrect throw-in (before the throw-in is complete) wouldn't ya?

Making sure we do not shoot FTs on a TC/PC situation is a lot different than telling a partner what they called. If that was the case every other travel call I would come in and change the call based on the actual rule.

Originally Posted by tref

Just a team officiating concept man. Because they paid for a CREW of 3 that works together not 3 individuals letting each other live & die with incorrect decisions that ruin the GAME.

If you paid all that money to attend camps, you also should realize that they hire 3 individuals that can do the job. And if you cannot do the job, they will find someone else that can. This is not like football where we work with the same people all the time. Yes we are a crew, but not where we have to help each other on basic calls on the time.

I just would have been simple if you stated what you were talking about.

Peace