Carry, or No Call?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The touch by the opponent is not relevant to the dribble unless it causes a loss of control. Did it? Even it it did, if the touch occurs after the release, which is the start of the second dribble, it is still a violation.

Agree.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

A1 dribbling, commits a clear carry as she tries to go around B1.

As I blow the whistle, B1 slaps the ball before it hits the ground following the ball coming to rest in A1's hand.

The ball has come to rest, and A1 has brought her hand around top again and begun pushing it to the floor. I thought my whistle was quick, but wanted to bring the play here for the good of the cause.

So...the ball had left the dribbler's hand? If that's the case the violation took place before the ball was touched by the defender.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

So...the ball had left the dribbler's hand? If that's the case the violation took place before the ball was touched by th defender.

No, the ball had not left. She had begun the downward thrust, but the ball was still in contact with the hand.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

No, the ball had not left. She had begun the downward thrust, but the ball was still in contact with the hand.

It was still in contact with the hand while the touch by the defender occurred, then released, then you had a whistle?

So, in your judgment, the touch had no effect on the release, correct?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

No, the ball had not left. She had begun the downward thrust, but the ball was still in contact with the hand.

In that case, I think you may have jumped the gun a bit.

I don't think it is a dribble until it is released (if not even later). Why? The pivot foot restrictions as they relate to the dribble are relative to the release of the ball to "start" a dribble.

What if she had, somehow, caught the ball before it was clear from the hand (perhaps scooping it back to her self to catch it)? Ignoring the carry rule, would you have called that an illegal dribble? Doesn't that more resemble an awkward looking but fully legal way to end the dribble.

A player can even toss the ball into the air and catch it and as long as they don't move, that isn't a dribble (illegal or legal) and it isn't a travel.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

No, the ball had not left. She had begun the downward thrust, but the ball was still in contact with the hand.

Okay, that's why I asked the question.

To follow CR's point, there wasn't anything until the ball came out of her hand again. At best it could have been a travel since - I'm assuming - her feet were still moving in whatever direction she was going and she might have taken a couple of steps after the ball came to rest in her hand. With the ball still in contact with her hand it couldn't have been an illegal dribble.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Okay, that's why I asked the question.

To follow CR's point, there wasn't anything until the ball came out of her hand again. At best it could have been a travel since - I'm assuming - her feet were still moving in whatever direction she was going and she might have taken a couple of steps after the ball came to rest in her hand. With the ball still in contact with her hand it couldn't have been an illegal dribble.

It happened more quickly than that, and I'll add that B1's touch didn't affect the ball in any material way. My whistle may have been early, but I don't think it was incorrect. Unless you think B1's touch gives A1 another dribble.

Imagine if A1 had actually picked up her dribble and as she started a new, illegal, dribble, B1 clips the ball while it is still touching her hand but on its downward thrust. No affect on the ball's movement.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Imagine if A1 had actually picked up her dribble and as she started a new, illegal, dribble, B1 clips the ball while it is still touching her hand but on its downward thrust. No affect on the ball's movement.

How does an official know that the action described above is not the start of a legal bounce pass to a teammate?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

How does an official know that the action described above is not the start of a legal bounce pass to a teammate?

How does an official know anything? You see the play and you make a judgment. Most of the time, a pass and the start of a dribble look nothing alike.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Most of the time, a (bounce) pass and the start of a dribble look nothing alike.

(My parenthesis above)

Aren't the start of both exactly the same, by definition? They certainly have a different ending, but I'm only talking about the start of both.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Aren't the start of both exactly the same, by definition? They certainly have a different ending, but I'm only talking about the start of both.

Hey BillyMac. This is, by far, the stupidest post, ever, in the history of Al Gore's internet. One important difference is that a player can legally lift the pivot foot at the start of a bounce pass, but cannot legally lift the pivot foot to start a dribble.

[Rob1968]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

seems to me this is a no-call. It's only a travel if the player takes too many steps while the ball is in the hand. It's only an illegal dribble when it comes back up into their hand - which it did not, directly.

The fact that b did not complete the steal of the ball is immaterial - i'd have no call in either case.

+1

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Seems to me this is a no-call. It's only a travel if the player takes too many steps while the ball is in the hand. It's only an illegal dribble when it comes back up into their hand - which it did not, directly.

The fact that B did not complete the steal of the ball is immaterial - I'd have no call in either case.

Actually, it did come back to her hand, directly. 1. B1's contact did not alter the ball, and it happened while the ball was in A1's hand. This sort of contact would not grant a player a new dribble, so why should it absolve her of the carry?

My whistle was, perhaps, early, but I don't think it was incorrect.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

In that case, I think you may have jumped the gun a bit.

I agree.

[jump stop]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Seems to me this is a no-call. It's only a travel if the player takes too many steps while the ball is in the hand. It's only an illegal dribble when it comes back up into their hand - which it did not, directly.

The fact that B did not complete the steal of the ball is immaterial - I'd have no call in either case.

+2
If the player catches dribble by putting hand under ball (i.e. carries) and then pushes ball out of hand to floor there is no violation unless player touches ball after release. Who is to say player wasn't going to pass ball??
So I have no call.