Go to Table for Help?

[Freddy]

Question debated today at camp: "By rule, can an official consult the timer or scorer for input regarding whether a last second shot was released before the horn?"

Disclaimer: I know it might not always be wise to consult or heed the advise from the table. It's somewhat a travesty that they even need to be asked. What I want to know is this: it is permitted by rule?

All I can come up with is . . .
A) the NFHS document "Instructions to and Duties of the Timer for Basketball Games" which I distribute to new timers which says, "Near the End of Playing Time: 4. If a quarter or extra period ends and: c. The timing signal is not heard by the officials, testimony of the timer may determine whether a score shall count or a foul shall be charged, unless the referee has information which would alter the situation."
and
B) the Casebook which says: (2.13), SITUATION: the signal to end the fourth quarter cannot be heard by the officials. The table officials disagree as to whether the ball was in flight during a try for field goal when time expired . . . RULING: The final decision shall be made by the referee, and unless he/she has knowledge to alter the ruling, the goal shall count if it was successful . . .
and
C) the NFHS Officials' Manual, p.32, which says, "The Referee will make the final decision in case of disagreement or if it is necessary to consult the timer. The timer should only be consulted on a last-second tap or try when the red/LED light fails to illuminate and/or the timer's signal is not heard."

Ergo, it seems clear that the referee's final decision regarding a last second shot may consider information gained by asking the timer. Anything I'm missing in the rulebook on this issue?

[JetMetFan]

All three things you posted answer the question: only if the official(s) doesn't/don't hear the horn or the horn/LED light/red light doesn't trigger. Other than that it's on us.

[JRutledge]

The table people almost always have a rooting interest and I am not going to them on these kinds of situations. All that is going to do is bring more trouble. The only thing I might ask them is if they horn went off or not, but they are not going to determine if I count a basket for sure.

Peace

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Question debated today at camp: "By rule, can an official consult the timer or scorer for input regarding whether a last second shot was released before the horn?"

The definitive answer I was looking for is Rule 2-13.

Not that I'd recommend it. But it is allowed.

[SCalScoreKeeper]

Rut,
I happen to believe that while a table will have their rooting interest the duty to properly administer a game comes first.If it means giving my R the information he/she needs to make the proper call even if it goes against our teams than so be it.Every table crew I've come in contact with over the last 6 years would say the same.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by SCalScoreKeeper

Rut,
I happen to believe that while a table will have their rooting interest the duty to properly administer a game comes first.If it means giving my R the information he/she needs to make the proper call even if it goes against our teams than so be it.Every table crew I've come in contact with over the last 6 years would say the same.

I think this is probably true for most table crews, but I still don't want to put them in that position. It's a no-win for the table; if their information favors the home team, we're screwed. If their information favors the visiting team, that's a lot to ask of a table crew.

With three, there's no reason ever to not have an opinion on a last second shot. With two, there's no reason either. With one? Well, any game with one isn't important enough to matter.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Question debated today at camp: "By rule, can an official consult the timer or scorer for input regarding whether a last second shot was released before the horn?"
...
Ergo, it seems clear that the referee's final decision regarding a last second shot may consider information gained by asking the timer. Anything I'm missing in the rulebook on this issue?

What does the rules book say?

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

All three things you posted answer the question: only if the official(s) doesn't/don't hear the horn or the horn/LED light/red light doesn't trigger. Other than that it's on us.

Yep, that's correct.

Originally Posted by Freddy

The definitive answer I was looking for is Rule 2-13.

Not that I'd recommend it. But it is allowed.

But again, don't forget what JetMet posted. For NFHS rules, consulting the table crew is ONLY to be done in the specific case of a timing device malfunction or the official's not being able to see/hear the signal. The officials can't just go ask the timer/scorer for extra help.

That's what 2-13 clearly says. "If the red/LED light fails to illuminate and the timer’s signal fails to sound, or is not recognized by the officials,.."

[BillyMac]

Should I have done anything different?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Freddy

The definitive answer I was looking for is Rule 2-13.

SECTION 13 TIMERS’ EQUIPMENT
If the red/LED light fails to illuminate and the timer’s signal fails to sound, or is
not recognized by the officials, the timer shall go onto the court or use other
means to immediately notify the nearest official. If in the meantime, a goal has
been made or a foul has occurred, the referee shall consult the timer:
ART. 1 If table officials agree that time expired before the ball was in flight,
the goal shall not count.
ART. 2 If table officials agree that the quarter or extra period ended, as in
5-6-2 before the foul occurred, the foul shall be disregarded, unless it was
intentional or flagrant.
ART. 3 If table officials disagree, the goal shall count and/or the foul shall
be penalized, unless the referee has knowledge which alters such ruling.

SIGNAL NOT HEARD
2.13 SITUATION: The signal to end the fourth quarter cannot be heard by the
officials. The table officials disagree as to whether the ball was in flight during a
try for field goal when time expired or if a foul occurred before the ball became
dead. RULING: The final decision shall be made by the referee, and unless he/she
has knowledge to alter the ruling, the goal shall count if it was successful and the
foul shall be charged and penalized. (2-5-5)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SCalScoreKeeper

Rut,
I happen to believe that while a table will have their rooting interest the duty to properly administer a game comes first.If it means giving my R the information he/she needs to make the proper call even if it goes against our teams than so be it.Every table crew I've come in contact with over the last 6 years would say the same.

That sounds all wonderful, but they already think we are bias, so why would I engage someone that is perceived to be bias into a key decision. The officials should make that decision and live with it. And I doubt that many tables even know or realize we can ask them and just like anything people shape their opinions based on their involvement. Sorry, but they are not getting me to ask them. I am glad the rules says this, but as stated rules are created by administrators and coaches mostly. There are not very many active officials that have their butts on the line if this is gotten wrong. And with all the video today, I really am not going to do ask the table for this information. Officials have the responsibility to take care of these things, and we will do the best we can. All we need is more controversy in our lives.

Peace