Discussing a call with your partner

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Billy, I like all of that except blowing the whistle. If not absolutely necessary, I would leave that part off, but that is just me.

I like the straight forward approach:
Only come to me if you are 100% sure and it is something I obviously missed
Give clear information - "The ball went off white"
I will change it.

I like an even more straight forward approach - only come to me, and I will only come to you, when help is asked for.

[walter]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I like an even more straight forward approach - only come to me, and I will only come to you, when help is asked for.

So Rocky, are you saying if you see your partner clearly get an OOB call wrong, (ie: clear tip off of red with no other touch and partner says and indicates red ball), you are not going to him/her unless he/she asks for help? If not, why?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by walter

So Rocky, are you saying if you see your partner clearly get an OOB call wrong, (ie: clear tip off of red with no other touch and partner says and indicates red ball), you are not going to him/her unless he/she asks for help? If not, why?

Yep.

My partner is right there and I am across/down the court. He/she has a better look at the play than I do...if everyone starts yelling and jumping around, my partner will ask me for help and I will give them any information I have. If everyone starts jumping around and yelling and my partner is confident that he/she got the call right, they won't ask for help and my response will be "hmmm - he/she saw something I didn't".

[tref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Yep.

My partner is right there and I am across/down the court. He/she has a better look at the play than I do...if everyone starts yelling and jumping around, my partner will ask me for help and I will give them any information I have. If everyone starts jumping around and yelling and my partner is confident that he/she got the call right, they won't ask for help and my response will be "hmmm - he/she saw something I didn't".

Out of curiousity, when you lead the pregame how do you discuss "helping partners" on OOB calls?

What do you do when working with a guy like myself, who doesnt believe in that practice & is all about getting the play right?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

Out of curiousity, when you lead the pregame how do you discuss "helping partners" on OOB calls?

What do you do when working with a guy like myself, who doesnt believe in that practice & is all about getting the play right?

Who said Rocky wasn't about getting the call right? He's about trusting that your partner will know if there's a chance he got it wrong.

Instead of trusting your partner to approach you if he sees something, you're trusting your partner to ask you if he thinks he may have missed it.

Either approach works if done by people who truly want to get the plays right, so I don't understand the subtle animosity towards those who approach it differently.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Who said Rocky wasn't about getting the call right? He's about trusting that your partner will know if there's a chance he got it wrong.

Instead of trusting your partner to approach you if he sees something, you're trusting your partner to ask you if he thinks he may have missed it.

Either approach works if done by people who truly want to get the plays right, so I don't understand the subtle animosity towards those who approach it differently.

I disagree, rockys approach is if they dont ask, I will not tell even if he has definitive info.
In my experiences, those who follow that mindset love to bring it up in the lockerroom, after the game when there is nothing you can do about it.

Others believe that they should provide the info & allow the calling official to decide what to do with the info.

When the boss asks about the questionable OOB call with 4 seconds left in a tied ballgame, I would like to be seen on film offering info as opposed to saying, "he didnt ask for help."
Because "he didnt ask for help" will lead to "did you see it?"
Thats just me...

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tref

I disagree, rockys approach is if they dont ask, I will not tell even if he has definitive info.
In my experiences, those who follow that mindset love to bring it up in the lockerroom, after the game when there is nothing you can do about it.

Others believe that they should provide the info & allow the calling official to decide what to do with the info.

When the boss asks about the questionable OOB call with 4 seconds left in a tied ballgame, I would like to be seen on film offering info as opposed to saying, "he didnt ask for help."
Because "he didnt ask for help" will lead to "did you see it?"
Thats just me...

I believe Rocky's mindset is that on a bang-bang play (that's what we are talking about, not a clear tip that occurs outside the vision or PCA of the calling official) in front of one official that there is just as much a chance the long-distance official may have missed something.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

I disagree, rockys approach is if they dont ask, I will not tell even if he has definitive info.
In my experiences, those who follow that mindset love to bring it up in the lockerroom, after the game when there is nothing you can do about it.

Others believe that they should provide the info & allow the calling official to decide what to do with the info.

When the boss asks about the questionable OOB call with 4 seconds left in a tied ballgame, I would like to be seen on film offering info as opposed to saying, "he didnt ask for help."
Because "he didnt ask for help" will lead to "did you see it?"
Thats just me...

Again, both systems only work when everyone involved wants to get it right. If I'm lead, and there's a play where I need help, I'll ask. Too many times, though, the T sees blue tip the ball and thinks it's white ball. What he misses, though, is that white hit it after. If T comes in on me there, I'm not changing.

I promise you, I'll ask if there's any chance I missed it. I will also, however, assume my partner is as conscientious as I am.

Obviously, things change if my partner is green or week, but all the rules go out in that case anyway.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tref

Out of curiousity, when you lead the pregame how do you discuss "helping partners" on OOB calls?

What do you do when working with a guy like myself, who doesnt believe in that practice & is all about getting the play right?

I believe this would cover it in my pre-games:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

... I don't give help on bang-bang plays in front of my partner. For me it has to be something he clearly could not have seen or that he clearly missed. But that's just me.

Regardless of how I do it, if you feel you need to help me on a play I'm going to accept your info and rule accordingly. But I'm not coming in on bang-bangs in front of you unless you ask for help.

[rt1111]

Im calling a 3 man spring league game. one of my partners is...getting up in age. hes easily 65 and it shows. hes almost never in position he is slow to signal and the fans and coaches are starting to get aggravated. we were shooting free throws. and Im the C. the second shot goes up and misses. me the T and everyone else in the gym sees it go out out on red. the L(everyones favorite official)calls it red ball. Im not defending anything I did or saying its something I normaly do, but everyone in the Gym knew it was white ball including my other partner. TOOT a little NBA hand slap and point in whites direction. did I botch this, should I have walked over and discussed it with him, is there a hybrid. anything to help me get beetter would by appreciated. no matter how you feel about it iff you have something in the officials manual that would be appreciated too.


PS alot of you guys call the pro league the NBE? what exactly does that stand for lol.

[APG]

In your case, I would have gone to the L and told him straight up, it went off of red and should be white's ball. Give him specifics if you think it'll help (Hey bob, red 34 hit the ball with his right hand and was the last to touch it).

NBE=National Basketball Entertainment...it's some people's way of saying that pro basketball isn't basketball but rather entertainment (as in officials never call travels on stars, stars get all the calls, and a multitude of other silly stuff). Stupid I think, but to each their own.

[BLydic]

Originally Posted by rt1111

Im calling a 3 man spring league game. one of my partners is...getting up in age. hes easily 65 and it shows. hes almost never in position he is slow to signal and the fans and coaches are starting to get aggravated. we were shooting free throws. and Im the C. the second shot goes up and misses. me the T and everyone else in the gym sees it go out out on red. the L(everyones favorite official)calls it red ball. Im not defending anything I did or saying its something I normaly do, but everyone in the Gym knew it was white ball including my other partner. TOOT a little NBA hand slap and point in whites direction. did I botch this, should I have walked over and discussed it with him, is there a hybrid. anything to help me get beetter would by appreciated. no matter how you feel about it iff you have something in the officials manual that would be appreciated too.

Let me ask you a question, do you like your partners overruling your calls on the court? Ok, since you don't like it, why did you on this play? While working with someone that is almost never in position and has bad mechanics is a challenge, it doesn't give you the right to go tooting and changing calls. Around here, if you are not asked for help, but you have info, quickly walk to the calling official, let him/her know what you have and let them toot and change the call. If you are asked for help, then by all means toot and make the call.

However, if you really want to do it right, check with the local people that are working the level that you aspire or better yet, the person assigning those games (if applicable). They'll teach you the correct way to handle this situation and then include it in every one of your pre-game discussions.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rt1111

Im calling a 3 man spring league game. one of my partners is...getting up in age. hes easily 65 and it shows. hes almost never in position he is slow to signal and the fans and coaches are starting to get aggravated. we were shooting free throws. and Im the C. the second shot goes up and misses. me the T and everyone else in the gym sees it go out out on red. the L(everyones favorite official)calls it red ball. Im not defending anything I did or saying its something I normaly do, but everyone in the Gym knew it was white ball including my other partner. TOOT a little NBA hand slap and point in whites direction. did I botch this, should I have walked over and discussed it with him, is there a hybrid. anything to help me get beetter would by appreciated. no matter how you feel about it iff you have something in the officials manual that would be appreciated too.


PS alot of you guys call the pro league the NBE? what exactly does that stand for lol.

The rules state no official can "overrule" another. That's what you did. Go talk to him, tell him what you saw, and let him live or die with the result.
He may be older and slower, but I'll bet he's forgotten more about officiating than you can imagine.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by rt1111

One of my partners is getting up in age.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

He may be older and slower.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.?

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by rt1111

Im calling a 3 man spring league game. one of my partners is...getting up in age. hes easily 65 and it shows. hes almost never in position he is slow to signal and the fans and coaches are starting to get aggravated. we were shooting free throws. and Im the C. the second shot goes up and misses. me the T and everyone else in the gym sees it go out out on red. the L(everyones favorite official)calls it red ball. Im not defending anything I did or saying its something I normaly do, but everyone in the Gym knew it was white ball including my other partner. TOOT a little NBA hand slap and point in whites direction. did I botch this, should I have walked over and discussed it with him, is there a hybrid. anything to help me get beetter would by appreciated. no matter how you feel about it iff you have something in the officials manual that would be appreciated too.


PS alot of you guys call the pro league the NBE? what exactly does that stand for lol.

The other problem with how you handled is that the coaches will expect you to automatically overrule that official's calls if they're 50-50. Not a good situation for any of you.