Block/Charge RA Play: Off Rebound

[rockyroad]

If you pause it at the point of contact, you will see that the shooter is going at an angle INTO the defender who is being shoved at an angle backwards...so I don't get this whole "he was moving into the shooter" thing.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Da Official

I agree with Cameron and Welpe. Defender moves forward just as offensive player jumps toward the basketball. Either way the play deserved a whistle and in my opinion the defensive block was the correct call.

A block isn't a bad choice if we have to have a whistle here. But the RA has nothing to do with this play.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

If you pause it at the point of contact, you will see that the shooter is going at an angle INTO the defender who is being shoved at an angle backwards...so I don't get this whole "he was moving into the shooter" thing.

And if you back it up a few more frames, you'll see the defender stepping forward to that point of contact. The defender started with his left foot coming down near the shooters left (pivot) foot with his (the defender) right foot trailing. He steps forward towards the shooter bringing his right foot ahead of his left at which time the two collide.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

And if you back it up a few more frames, you'll see the defender stepping forward to that point of contact. The defender started with his left foot coming down near the shooters left (pivot) foot with his (the defender) right foot trailing. He steps forward towards the shooter bringing his right foot ahead of his left at which time the two collide.

But the defender didn't cause the contact...the shooter did.

[APG]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

But the defender didn't cause the contact...the shooter did.

If the defender is moving toward the player with the ball at the time of contact, then he did cause the contact.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

If the defender is moving toward the player with the ball at the time of contact, then he did cause the contact.

Nope...that is not what happened here, imo.

Did the defender move forward? Yes...Was he still moving forward when the contact happened? No...the shooter jumped at an angle into the defender.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

If the defender is moving toward the player with the ball at the time of contact, then he did cause the contact.

Not if he throws his shoulder into the defender. The player does not have to be LGP just to get a foul called in their favor IMO.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

But the defender didn't cause the contact...the shooter did.

Causing contact isn't against the rules. In fact, shooters usually cause the contact in most blocks....but it is a block because the defender wasn't legal in some way and the shooter took advantage of it.

In this case, the defender is moving forward at the time of contact. To be moving at the time of contact, the player must have LGP. Let's assume he did obtain it....he did. The rules on maintaining it then say...

Rule 4-23-2c
The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.

The defender violated this requirement and gave up LGP by doing so. He did not satisfied the requirements of guarding and thus committed the foul.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Not if he throws his shoulder into the defender. The player does not have to be LGP just to get a foul called in their favor IMO.

Peace

But that is not what we're talking about in this play. There was no shove, clearout, or thrown shoulder. The shooter merely stepped towards the basket and went up. The defender stepped into him and committed a foul.

For that matter, show me where "throwing a shoulder" is defined. I don't recall seeing that in the rulebook.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

...For that matter, show me where "throwing a shoulder" is defined. I don't recall seeing that in the rulebook.

I'm sure somebody could conjure up something if that's what side of the argument they wanted to be on.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I'm sure somebody could conjure up something if that's what side of the argument they wanted to be on.

Yes, it is a made up rule. A lot of people call a charge because a shooter/dribbler comes through with their head/shoulder down. Nothing in the book requires the shooter to be in any specific orientation (only defenders). In fact, with references to "head and shoulders" getting past the defender, that seems to imply that head and shoulders, to some degree, leading the way is expected.

Defenders must legally cut off the dribbler. If they don't, it is a block. It doesn't matter how the dribbler comes in (excluding extended limbs....push-offs with the arm or kicks with the foot)....if the defender is not legal, it is not a charge.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

In this case, the defender is moving forward at the time of contact.

I guess maybe we aren't looking at the same play...the way I see this play (and yes, I just watched it again) the defender was NOT moving forward AT the time of contact. He moved forward, stopped, and then the shooter jumped into him.

Oh well...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

He moved forward, stopped, and then the shooter jumped into him.

Are you positive that he stopped? I'm not, and I've looked at the video a half dozen times. I'm also not sure that he didn't stop.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I guess maybe we aren't looking at the same play...the way I see this play (and yes, I just watched it again) the defender was NOT moving forward AT the time of contact. He moved forward, stopped, and then the shooter jumped into him.

Oh well...

I'm with you rocky, the defender did not move into the shooter. He moved his right foot after establishing LGP, but his torso never moved. Also, did A1 even get airborne before the contact? I just looked again, A1 created contact before leaving the ground.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I'm with you rocky, the defender did not move into the shooter. He moved his right foot after establishing LGP, but his torso never moved.

Unless you deliberately, and with specific concentration, stick your foot backwards or forwards in an effort to not move your torso, it is pretty hard to do. In the course of the play, I doubt the player would have done so. If you're agreeing that the player moved his foot forward, you're pretty much agreeing he was moving forward.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Also, did A1 even get airborne before the contact? *I just looked again, A1 created contact before leaving the ground.

And what does A1 being airborne have to do with anything? Moving forward at the time of contact is prohibited no matter the status of the opponent. The status of the shooter (airborne or not) is irrelevant to this case.

The ONLY question that has to be answered is whether the defender was moving forward at the time of contact or not.