False Double Foul?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Toren

Now that I give it more thought, I'm realizing I'm trying to rewrite the book.

It happened like #3, so we needed to penalize like #3. I can't penalize #5 when it happened like #3.

Disregard my previous post.

And because you're going to end up tossing A1 with 2 T's when everything is sorted out, I'd probably call B1's personal foul an intentional foul....for no other reason than to send a message that B1's shove was also serious and would not be tolerated.

It will not change anything since A, if I'm reading correctly, was over 10 fouls. The same number of shots would be taken either way and B would still be getting the ball after the final T was penalized. Even if A were not over 10 fouls, I'd call it intentional and let A have the 2 shots.

Doing so would go a long way towards containing any escalation from either side.

[Toren]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

And because you're going to end up tossing A1 with 2 T's when everything is sorted out, I'd probably call B1's personal foul an intentional foul....for no other reason than to send a message that B1's shove was also serious and would not be tolerated.

It will not change anything since A, if I'm reading correctly, was over 10 fouls. The same number of shots would be taken either way and B would still be getting the ball after the final T was penalized. Even if A were not over 10 fouls, I'd call it intentional and let A have the 2 shots.

Doing so would go a long way towards contain any escalation from either side.

Neither team was in the bonus. Now I'm wondering what I said to make you think that.

[dsqrddgd909]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Good situation. I see 5 possibilities...and the way you described it and administered it doesn't match any of them. You called it as if it were #4 but you described it as it were #1 or #2, or perhaps #3.

All start with a T for unsportsmanlike conduct on A1.

1. If the two shoves were approximately the same time and all action occurred before the try ended:

• The shove by B1 was a personal foul.
• The shove back by A1 was also a personal foul.
• Same time makes it a double foul.
• Penalized the T....2 shots and the ball for B.

2. If the two shoves were NOT approximately the same time (B1 shoves then A1 gets back up and shoves back) and all action occurred before the try ended :

• The shove by B1 was a personal foul.
• The shove back by A1 was also a personal foul
• Not the same time makes it a false double foul.
• Penalize all fouls in the order of occurance. T, personal, personal.

3. If the two shoves were NOT approximately the same time (B1 shoves then A1 gets back up and shoves back) and all the last shove only was after the try ended:

• The shove by B1 was a personal foul.
• The shove back by A1 was a technical foul
• Penalize all fouls in the order of occurance. T, personal, T.

4. If the two shoves were approximately the same time and both were after the try ended:

• The shove by B1 was a technical foul.
• The shove back by A1 was a technical foul
• Same time makes it a double foul.
• Penalize the first T....2 shots and the ball to B.

5. If the two shoves were NOT approximately the same time (B1 shoves then A1 gets back up and shoves back) and both were after the try ended:

• The shove by B1 was a technical foul.
• The shove back by A1 was a technical foul
• Not the same time makes it a false double foul.
• Penalize all fouls in the order of occurance. T, T, T.

The basket would count in any case.

A1 may or may not be DQ'd depending on which scenario really happened.

Whether the fouls were close enough in time to be considered "approximately" the same time is your judgment.

You could declare actions a fight making both actions flagrant and DQ both of them in any case.

Wow, +1. Now I have to do 2 things. Re-read (and this time truly understand) rule 4 and pray I don't get this situation until I do.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

Wow, +1. Now I have to do 2 things. Re-read (and this time truly understand) rule 4 and pray I don't get this situation until I do.

Some people find it easier to go on principles rather than enumerated lists of possibilities....I do....and it is a lot easier to learn basic principles than to memorize a million variations of case plays. Yet, some people (not you) insist on a case play for every possibility.

Basic principles...

• the ball remains live until the try ends (made or missed) when a foul other than player control foul occurs after the release (or a defensive foul occurs after the shooting motion begins).
• contact fouls during a live ball are personal fouls.
• contact fouls during a dead ball are (generally) technical fouls.
• a double foul happens at approximately the same time
• double fouls effectively offset (but are still recorded as if they were individual fouls).

That is all you need to know to resolve all of the above scenarios.