Throw-in violation

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by tref

BNR I did read that thread & like many of our threads, it didnt seem as though we ever came to a conclusion.

If I may be so bold, here's the conclusion for NCAA-M games. This email came directly from Art Hyland and the ruling will be included in next year's case book.

Sorry for the late response, but your rules question presented several interesting issues, and I needed to research the issues to assure myself that there had not been any prior interpretations given by Ed Billick.

You have identified many of the rules which relate to your play situation, but none of them, individually or collectively, provides a definitive answer to your question. Accordingly, the following play situation and interpretation should clarify the issues in question and will be presented to the rules committee this May for final approval before being published in the Case Book:

Play Situation:
With 2 seconds remaining in the game and Team A behind by 2 points, Team A has the ball for a throw-in on the endline after Team B has scored. A-1, the thrower-in, passes the ball down court where it is first touched by B-1 who is standing with one or more feet out of bounds.

Ruling- Since the ball has never been touched by a player inbounds nor met any of the other conditions of Rule 4-70.4, the throw-in has never ended. Team B’s out of bounds violation results in a new throw-in by Team A from the original designated spot ( the endline ). No time shall come off the game or shot clock. Rule 4-70.4, 7-5.2 and 7-2.2

Please let me know if you have any further questions.

Art Hyland
Sec. Ed., NCAA Men's Basketball Rules Committee

For NFHS, I would have said that I also had a definitive ruling, but in looking at the PENALTY section of 9-2, I'm not so sure.

NFHS 9-2-2 says that "The ball shall be passed by the thrower directly into the court from out-of-bounds so it touches or is touched by another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched."

[Complete off-topic question: why are there hyphens in "from out-of-bounds" but no hyphens in "inbounds or out of bounds"? I would never have noticed it except that I just typed it out ]

Ok, so prior to today, I would have stated with 100% confidence that a throw-in pass that was caught by a player who was standing out of bounds (out-of-bounds?) would be put back in play at the spot where it was caught. After all, the inbounder did his job. He threw the ball so that it touched a player out of bounds before it went out-of-bounds untouched. The violation must have been committed by the player who caught the ball, and so that's where the ball would be put back in play.

Today, however, after reading the PENALTY section that follows 9-2, I'm not so sure. It reads as follows:

PENALTY: (Section 2) The ball becomes dead when the violation or technical foul occurs. Following a violation, the ball is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in at the original throw-in spot.

Notice that the penalty applies to the entirety of Section 2. So this now seems to say to me that the ball goes to the original throw-in spot, regardless of who causes the violation.

Thoughts?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

If I may be so bold, here's the conclusion for NCAA-M games. This email came directly from Art Hyland and the ruling will be included in next year's case book.


For NFHS, I would have said that I also had a definitive ruling, but in looking at the PENALTY section of 9-2, I'm not so sure.

NFHS 9-2-2 says that "The ball shall be passed by the thrower directly into the court from out-of-bounds so it touches or is touched by another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched."

[Complete off-topic question: why are there hyphens in "from out-of-bounds" but no hyphens in "inbounds or out of bounds"? I would never have noticed it except that I just typed it out ]

Ok, so prior to today, I would have stated with 100% confidence that a throw-in pass that was caught by a player who was standing out of bounds (out-of-bounds?) would be put back in play at the spot where it was caught. After all, the inbounder did his job. He threw the ball so that it touched a player out of bounds before it went out-of-bounds untouched. The violation must have been committed by the player who caught the ball, and so that's where the ball would be put back in play.

Today, however, after reading the PENALTY section that follows 9-2, I'm not so sure. It reads as follows:

Notice that the penalty applies to the entirety of Section 2. So this now seems to say to me that the ball goes to the original throw-in spot, regardless of who causes the violation.

Thoughts?

It doesn't go OOB untouched, so it's an OOB violation on the catcher. What rule does B1 break by catching A1's TI pass while standing on the boundary line? Isn't that the way we determine where the ensuing throw in should take place?

[tref]

I'm just going to pose the question to the people I work for & call it how they want it called.


*things that make you go hmmmm* How can the NBA book be thinner & still be written more clearly?

[rockyroad]

Scrappy, my only issue with Mr. Hyland's response to you is his use of "designated spot" on the endline. If the score was after a made basket by the opposing team, and then team B violates on the ensuing throw-in (never allowing the throw-in to end), then why would A's throw in be at a designated spot? Wouldn't they retain the right to run the endline?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Scrappy, my only issue with Mr. Hyland's response to you is his use of "designated spot" on the endline. If the score was after a made basket by the opposing team, and then team B violates on the ensuing throw-in (never allowing the throw-in to end), then why would A's throw in be at a designated spot? Wouldn't they retain the right to run the endline?

And, if B violates before the TI ends (per Hyland), wouldn't the arrow stay put if it was an AP throw in?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And, if B violates before the TI ends (per Hyland), wouldn't the arrow stay put if it was an AP throw in?

Yeah!

What he said.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

If I may be so bold, here's the conclusion for NCAA-M games. This email came directly from Art Hyland and the ruling will be included in next year's case book.
...

The problem with Mr. Hyland's interp is that it flies in the face of of 7-2-2 (When the ball is out of bounds because of touching or being touched by a player who is on or outside a boundary, such player shall have caused the ball to go out of bounds.) and 9-3-1 (A player shall not cause the ball to go out of bounds.). 9-15-1 tells us that the ensuing throw-in shall be at the spot nearest the violation for infractions 9-3 through 9-14: The ball shall become dead or remain dead when a violation occurs. The ball shall be awarded to a nearby opponent for a throw-in at a designated spot nearest to where the violation occurred. (Applies only to Rule 9, Sections 3 through 14)

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

...
For NFHS, I would have said that I also had a definitive ruling, but in looking at the PENALTY section of 9-2, I'm not so sure.

NFHS 9-2-2 says that "The ball shall be passed by the thrower directly into the court from out-of-bounds so it touches or is touched by another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched."

[Complete off-topic question: why are there hyphens in "from out-of-bounds" but no hyphens in "inbounds or out of bounds"? I would never have noticed it except that I just typed it out ]

Ok, so prior to today, I would have stated with 100% confidence that a throw-in pass that was caught by a player who was standing out of bounds (out-of-bounds?) would be put back in play at the spot where it was caught. After all, the inbounder did his job. He threw the ball so that it touched a player out of bounds before it went out-of-bounds untouched. The violation must have been committed by the player who caught the ball, and so that's where the ball would be put back in play.

Today, however, after reading the PENALTY section that follows 9-2, I'm not so sure. It reads as follows:

Notice that the penalty applies to the entirety of Section 2. So this now seems to say to me that the ball goes to the original throw-in spot, regardless of who causes the violation.

Thoughts?

You could just as easily apply 9-3-2 (No player shall be out of bounds when he/she touches or is touched by the ball after it has been released on a throw-in pass.) and the Penalty for all of Section 3: PENALTY: (Section 3) The ball is dead when the violation occurs and is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in from the designated out-of-bounds spot nearest the violation. (See 6-7-9 Exception d)

[Camron Rust]

Violation on the player who touched the ball while being OOB. The correct throwin spot is the spot of the OOB violation. (NCAA-M interpretation says otherwise, but it doesn't correlate with what the rule actually says).

[Raymond]

Again, a situation I think deserves specific case plays. A2 catches OOB then we have a throw-in violation on Team A and ball goes back to original spot. B2 catches the ball OOB and we have a floor violation and the ball goes nearest the spot of the violation. Does B2's violation cause the throw-in to end?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Again, a situation I think deserves specific case plays. A2 catches OOB then we have a throw-in violation on Team A and ball goes back to original spot. B2 catches the ball OOB and we have a floor violation and the ball goes nearest the spot of the violation. Does B2's violation cause the throw-in to end?

Incorrect. Both are OOB violations, neither are throw-in violations.

The thrower only needs to throw the ball such that it touches a player who is inbounds OR out of bounds to legally complete the throwin.

When A2 or B2 touches the ball, it is an OOB violation because A2/B2 caused the ball to be OOB.

If the ball goes OOB before/without being touched by a player, it is a throwin violation.

Of course, in spite of what the rule says, Art Hyland has pulled one out of thin air to say that it goes back to the original spot when a player touches the throwin while OOB. There really is no reason nor rules justification for that.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Incorrect. Both are OOB violations, neither are throw-in violations.

The thrower only needs to throw the ball such that it touches a player who is inbounds OR out of bounds to legally complete the throwin.

When A2 or B2 touches the ball, it is an OOB violation because A2/B2 caused the ball to be OOB.

If the ball goes OOB before/without being touched by a player, it is a throwin violation.

Of course, in spite of what the rule says, Art Hyland has pulled one out of thin are to say that it goes back to the original spot when a player touches the throwin while OOB. There really is no reason nor rules justification for that.

Right, I think the key to this play is to consider who is guilty of the violation. The ball is always put in play at the spot of the violation (with exceptions), so if the violation is on A2, that's the spot. If it's on A1, that's the spot.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Incorrect. Both are OOB violations, neither are throw-in violations.

The thrower only needs to throw the ball such that it touches a player who is inbounds OR out of bounds to legally complete the throwin.

When A2 or B2 touches the ball, it is an OOB violation because A2/B2 caused the ball to be OOB.

....

I didn't make myself clear. I want the a throw-in caught OOB by A2 to be considered a throw-in violation with the ball returned to original spot, while a throw-in caught OOB by B2 to be a OOB violation with ensuing throw-in at spot of violation.

Still, a throw-in caught OOB by B2, would the throw-in be considered ended for the purposes of the AP arrow?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I didn't make myself clear. I want the a throw-in caught OOB by A2 to be considered a throw-in violation with the ball returned to original spot, while a throw-in caught OOB by B2 to be a OOB violation with ensuing throw-in at spot of violation.

Why would you want that?

Keep it simple.

A player who touches the ball while OOB has committed an OOB violation and the throwin spot is the spot where they touched the ball.

Why complicated it with which player touches it or whether it is from a throwin or not? Your idea doesn't really solve or improve anything?

You'd also have to decide if A2 stepped OOB before or after touching the ball....and the splitting of that hair could make a big difference regarding the throwin spot. If you keep it at the spot of the touch, it is simple.

If A2 and B2 are both going for the ball and one is OOB, you have to split another hair...who touched it first and the result could drastically different. As it is, you only care that the player OOB touched the ball...the order doesn't matter.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Still, a throw-in caught OOB by B2, would the throw-in be considered ended for the purposes of the AP arrow?

And, yes, the throw in legally ended (unless the contact itself was illegal as in a kicked ball)....AP would switch.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Incorrect. Both are OOB violations, neither are throw-in violations.

Except that pesky 9-2 PENALTY keeps making me wonder. . .