Throw-in violation

[tref]

Yes, I tried the search function... and I'm still

Looking for an NFHS & NCAA ruling on how to resume this play:

After a made basket A1s throw in pass to the f/c is caught by A2 who is standing on the endline.

I think A2 caused the OOB violation instead of A1 causing a throw-in violation. My understanding of both codes is that we go to the original throw-in spot when the thrower violates.



Thanks

[Raymond]

Do a search on Interps. NCAA-M say it is a throw-in violation (return to original throw-in spot), NCAA-W say A2 caused the ball to go OOB.

There is a thread somewhere within the last 2-3 months discussing this play and ruling.

[BigT]

Thanks BadNewsRef

[tref]

BNR I did read that thread & like many of our threads, it didnt seem as though we ever came to a conclusion.

Guess I'll just do what I feel is right (Lord forgive me).

[Adam]

You've got two choices here. Either A2 caused an OOB violation, or A2 caused a throw in violation. Either way, it's by A2, and the spot is the same.

If this was a spot throw in, then it's an OOB violation on A2. Several years ago, the NFHS quietly changed this exact play to a TI violation (I think, by accident), then quietly changed it back.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You've got two choices here. Either A2 caused an OOB violation, or A2 caused a throw in violation. Either way, it's by A2, and the spot is the same.

If this was a spot throw in, then it's an OOB violation on A2. Several years ago, the NFHS quietly changed this exact play to a TI violation (I think, by accident), then quietly changed it back.

I think I'll go with an OOB violation on A2 & the throw-in at the spot of the violation instead of a throw-in violation as A2 was the receiver.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tref

BNR I did read that thread & like many of our threads, it didnt seem as though we ever came to a conclusion.

Guess I'll just do what I feel is right (Lord forgive me).

In fact thinking back I think the discussion was about B2 catching the ball OOB and NCAA-M say A's ensuing throw-in should go back to the original spot.

I think it's an important enough, likely enough to happen, that clearly defined wording needs to be added to the rule book.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

I think I'll go with an OOB violation on A2 & the throw-in at the spot of the violation instead of a throw-in violation as A2 was the receiver.

I would, too. But if A1's pass was meant to be in accordance with an end line throw-in, it would be a TI violation rather than OOB.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

But if A1's pass was meant to be in accordance with an end line throw-in, it would be a TI violation rather than OOB.

I disagree, NFHS & NCAA-W says:

SITUATION 3: During an alternating-possession throw-in for Team A, thrower A1 passes the ball directly on the court where it contacts (a) A2 or (b) B2, while he/she is standing on a boundary line.

RULING: Out-of-bounds violation on (a) A2; (b) B2. The player was touched by the ball while out of bounds, thereby ending the throw-in. The alternating-possession arrow is reversed and pointed toward Team B's basket when the throw-in ends (when A2/B2 is touched by the ball). A throw-in is awarded at a spot nearest the out-of-bounds violation for (a) Team B; (b) Team A. (4-42-5; 6-4-4; 9-2-2; 9-3-2)

7-2-1 If the ball is out of bounds because of touching or being touched by a player who is on or outside a boundary line, such player causes it to go out.

2/21/12 Throw-in violations (Rule 9-5.1.b)
The interpretation of 9-5.1.b has been that when a player is standing on a boundary line or straddling
a boundary line when she catches a passed ball from a thrower-in, that player has caused the ball to be out of bounds...

Art Hyland has me confused

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

I disagree, NFHS & NCAA-W says:

SITUATION 3: During an alternating-possession throw-in for Team A, thrower A1 passes the ball directly on the court where it contacts (a) A2 or (b) B2, while he/she is standing on a boundary line.

RULING: Out-of-bounds violation on (a) A2; (b) B2. The player was touched by the ball while out of bounds, thereby ending the throw-in. The alternating-possession arrow is reversed and pointed toward Team B's basket when the throw-in ends (when A2/B2 is touched by the ball). A throw-in is awarded at a spot nearest the out-of-bounds violation for (a) Team B; (b) Team A. (4-42-5; 6-4-4; 9-2-2; 9-3-2)

7-2-1 If the ball is out of bounds because of touching or being touched by a player who is on or outside a boundary line, such player causes it to go out.

2/21/12 Throw-in violations (Rule 9-5.1.b)
The interpretation of 9-5.1.b has been that when a player is standing on a boundary line or straddling
a boundary line when she catches a passed ball from a thrower-in, that player has caused the ball to be out of bounds...

Art Hyland has me confused

I was talking specifically about an end line throw-in rather than a spot throw-in. A1, OOB, throws to A2 across the lane. A2 catches it a) with one foot OOB and one foot touching the IB side of the line, b) with both feet in the air after jumping from IB, then lands OOB, or c) with one foot IB and the other touching the boundary line.

A seems more like a TI violation on A2 and B is clearly an OOB violation. C is a bit more hazy; but it doesn't really matter, as A2 is the violator either way.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by tref

BNR I did read that thread & like many of our threads, it didnt seem as though we ever came to a conclusion.

If I may be so bold, here's the conclusion for NCAA-M games. This email came directly from Art Hyland and the ruling will be included in next year's case book.

Sorry for the late response, but your rules question presented several interesting issues, and I needed to research the issues to assure myself that there had not been any prior interpretations given by Ed Billick.

You have identified many of the rules which relate to your play situation, but none of them, individually or collectively, provides a definitive answer to your question. Accordingly, the following play situation and interpretation should clarify the issues in question and will be presented to the rules committee this May for final approval before being published in the Case Book:

Play Situation:
With 2 seconds remaining in the game and Team A behind by 2 points, Team A has the ball for a throw-in on the endline after Team B has scored. A-1, the thrower-in, passes the ball down court where it is first touched by B-1 who is standing with one or more feet out of bounds.

Ruling- Since the ball has never been touched by a player inbounds nor met any of the other conditions of Rule 4-70.4, the throw-in has never ended. Team B’s out of bounds violation results in a new throw-in by Team A from the original designated spot ( the endline ). No time shall come off the game or shot clock. Rule 4-70.4, 7-5.2 and 7-2.2

Please let me know if you have any further questions.

Art Hyland
Sec. Ed., NCAA Men's Basketball Rules Committee

For NFHS, I would have said that I also had a definitive ruling, but in looking at the PENALTY section of 9-2, I'm not so sure.

NFHS 9-2-2 says that "The ball shall be passed by the thrower directly into the court from out-of-bounds so it touches or is touched by another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched."

[Complete off-topic question: why are there hyphens in "from out-of-bounds" but no hyphens in "inbounds or out of bounds"? I would never have noticed it except that I just typed it out ]

Ok, so prior to today, I would have stated with 100% confidence that a throw-in pass that was caught by a player who was standing out of bounds (out-of-bounds?) would be put back in play at the spot where it was caught. After all, the inbounder did his job. He threw the ball so that it touched a player out of bounds before it went out-of-bounds untouched. The violation must have been committed by the player who caught the ball, and so that's where the ball would be put back in play.

Today, however, after reading the PENALTY section that follows 9-2, I'm not so sure. It reads as follows:

PENALTY: (Section 2) The ball becomes dead when the violation or technical foul occurs. Following a violation, the ball is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in at the original throw-in spot.

Notice that the penalty applies to the entirety of Section 2. So this now seems to say to me that the ball goes to the original throw-in spot, regardless of who causes the violation.

Thoughts?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

If I may be so bold, here's the conclusion for NCAA-M games. This email came directly from Art Hyland and the ruling will be included in next year's case book.


For NFHS, I would have said that I also had a definitive ruling, but in looking at the PENALTY section of 9-2, I'm not so sure.

NFHS 9-2-2 says that "The ball shall be passed by the thrower directly into the court from out-of-bounds so it touches or is touched by another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched."

[Complete off-topic question: why are there hyphens in "from out-of-bounds" but no hyphens in "inbounds or out of bounds"? I would never have noticed it except that I just typed it out ]

Ok, so prior to today, I would have stated with 100% confidence that a throw-in pass that was caught by a player who was standing out of bounds (out-of-bounds?) would be put back in play at the spot where it was caught. After all, the inbounder did his job. He threw the ball so that it touched a player out of bounds before it went out-of-bounds untouched. The violation must have been committed by the player who caught the ball, and so that's where the ball would be put back in play.

Today, however, after reading the PENALTY section that follows 9-2, I'm not so sure. It reads as follows:

Notice that the penalty applies to the entirety of Section 2. So this now seems to say to me that the ball goes to the original throw-in spot, regardless of who causes the violation.

Thoughts?

It doesn't go OOB untouched, so it's an OOB violation on the catcher. What rule does B1 break by catching A1's TI pass while standing on the boundary line? Isn't that the way we determine where the ensuing throw in should take place?

[tref]

I'm just going to pose the question to the people I work for & call it how they want it called.


*things that make you go hmmmm* How can the NBA book be thinner & still be written more clearly?

[rockyroad]

Scrappy, my only issue with Mr. Hyland's response to you is his use of "designated spot" on the endline. If the score was after a made basket by the opposing team, and then team B violates on the ensuing throw-in (never allowing the throw-in to end), then why would A's throw in be at a designated spot? Wouldn't they retain the right to run the endline?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Scrappy, my only issue with Mr. Hyland's response to you is his use of "designated spot" on the endline. If the score was after a made basket by the opposing team, and then team B violates on the ensuing throw-in (never allowing the throw-in to end), then why would A's throw in be at a designated spot? Wouldn't they retain the right to run the endline?

And, if B violates before the TI ends (per Hyland), wouldn't the arrow stay put if it was an AP throw in?