you make the call

[tref]

Judging by the officials shorts, this looks like some off season ball. Never know what you're gonna get there when it comes to officiating, coaching & players alike.
BUT the L is wearing college wides so that makes me pay a bit more attention to him as it suggests he may have a college schedule.

This video is great reinforcement of why we need to close down on held balls... especially in the paint.

Not knowing whats happened up to this point in the game, the score seems to favor A1 & I wouldn't think he would be in frustration mode. It looks flagrant to me, I would like to believe I would use proper held ball procedures & not have to respond to this play as opposed to (the OPs question) reacting to it. It appears that the L was more concerned about his holding his perfect signal up high than using his voice while dead balling his call & I wonder what the T was looking at after the whistle.

Curious, was this called a held ball & nothing more??

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by tref

Judging by the officials shorts, this looks like some off season ball. Never know what you're gonna get there when it comes to officiating, coaching & players alike.
BUT the L is wearing college wides so that makes me pay a bit more attention to him as it suggests he may have a college schedule.

This video is great reinforcement of why we need to close down on held balls... especially in the paint.

Not knowing whats happened up to this point in the game, the score seems to favor A1 & I wouldn't think he would be in frustration mode. It looks flagrant to me, I would like to believe I would use proper held ball procedures & not have to respond to this play as opposed to (the OPs question) reacting to it. It appears that the L was more concerned about his holding his perfect signal up high than using his voice while dead balling his call & I wonder what the T was looking at after the whistle.

Curious, was this called a held ball & nothing more??

Frankly, I don't care what happened up to this point in the game. The kid got frustrated at the held ball and kicked out of frustration. This is a flagrant T all the way.

Tref, you make a good point about moving closer to the play on the held ball. If the L gets in quickly I don't know if it prevents the kick but at least he sees it and can deal with it. As Snaq pointed out, if the officials had the same view as the camera maybe (hopefully) a call is made.

JugglingRef...it doesn't have to be deliberate to be a flagrant:

4-19-4

A flagrant foul may be a personal or technical foul of a violent or savage nature, or a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct. It may or may not be intentional. If personal, it involves, but is not limited to violent contact such as: striking, kicking and kneeing. If technical, it involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct. Fighting is a flagrant act.

[Nevadaref]

In the NBA that's nothing because the officials have to account for a player's momentum.

[bainsey]

Flagrant T. Send him to the bench, talk with the coach, and hope the kid learns his lesson.

[tref]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Frankly, I don't care what happened up to this point in the game. The kid got frustrated at the held ball and kicked out of frustration. This is a flagrant T all the way.

I don't "care" either, just saying I probably wouldn't have expected such frustration on a simple held ball call either... unless some things occured earlier in the game. Not that it makes a difference, this is a flagrant act. Expect the unexpected, right

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

Didn't look deliberate to me. Not sure that I would have anything either.

As much as I hate to "swim against the tide" of popular, and esteemed, opinion, I agree. Held ball. Pivot. Momentum. Inadvertent kick. After the play, it appears that he comes back to check on the kid on the floor.

[lmfc saints]

I originally posted the question re: the call. I took advice and sent to league director - who forwarded to his officiating director - an official who claims - and with great prideful vigor and a listing of his prolific credits as a D1 Women's Basketball official (no disrespect for such referees intended) - great experience etc. and thus patronized me with such. His response was much less than what I had hoped for. He, like Billymac did not see anything wrong with the incident - calling it, "purely a basketball play." I was obviously disappointed and totally disagree with his call on the matter. Too bad for all - the program, the boy who committed the infraction (who will not learn from it) and obviously the boy who received the kick in the face - along with his $5,000 worth of dental work. A case of protecting image of program and the officiating director's (I think highly of myself) reputation ("God Complex" some referees seem to inflict on the game!) over against player safety!

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by lmfc saints

... ("God Complex" some referees seem to inflict on the game!) over against player safety!

What's a "God complex" and what does it have to do with the officials in this game and missing a call (which I agree they missed)?

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

After the play, it appears that he comes back to check on the kid on the floor.

Immediate remorse. I just watched the video again and I have a hard time seeing that as anything but deliberate.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... After the play, it appears that he comes back to check on the kid on the floor.

I addressed that in my post. Showing remorse doesn't mean that the act didn't happened. You never did anything on purpose then immediately realized you were wrong?

[rockyroad]

Still not buying that this was just a "momentum" thing. If it was momentum, why didn't the kicker end up stumbling over the defender? That's what happens when you are moving forward (momentum) and your foot suddenly stops because it contacts something - you stumble over whatever it was...nope. This kid kicked the defender in the face and then started to walk away.

[tref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Still not buying that this was just a "momentum" thing. If it was momentum, why didn't the kicker end up stumbling over the defender? That's what happens when you are moving forward (momentum) and your foot suddenly stops because it contacts something - you stumble over whatever it was...nope. This kid kicked the defender in the face and then started to walk away.

Yeah, there is a big difference between a kick & a stumble. Maybe he should tryout for the kicker position in football.

[lmfc saints]

[email protected]I refer to such as a complex wherein one feels they can do no wrong therefore they can never accept responsibility and accountability that they were wrong about something. I see it at times in all of sports - particularly youth sports. I realize nobody wants a referee/umpire etc. that "flip/flops" his/her position on calls, but when the evidence is clear that a call was blown - own up instead of defending oneself at the expense of fair play. In this instance, even after seeing the video and what I believe was clear evidence of a flagrant foul, the officials for the game, the director of those officials (a gentleman who effusively claimed his professionalism: I have been in this position for over 5 years an active official for over 25 years and worked at just about every level of basketball you can conceive of - this would include International play, NCAA Division I (what I currently work), the NBA and other professional leagues. The reason I am giving you my five second resume is to lend some credence to what I can tell you about this video. The other point to outlining my own experience is I have watched video of other officials and myself for two decades and can break down tape with the best.), and the league director all continued to vehemently defend their interpretation of the play.

The following was the "expert's" take on the play: "The action which resulted in the injury to the player was a basketball play. The kick is not intentional which would explain why the offensive player was so adamant in denying he did it on purpose. If you are able to look at the footage again with fresh eyes I would contend that the offensive player didn't even realize he kicked the defender until afterwards (this is made clear by the body language of the offensive player and the fact he turns around coming back towards the defender to see what happened) I have viewed hundreds if not thousands of flagrant fouls - flagrant technicals and other unsportsmanlike acts - so I can tell you this with high certainty...When a player does what you contend in this case - a deliberate and intentional act they immediately walk away or stalk away from the the scene of the crime. They never come back to the player they just "fouled" unless it is to stand over them to further try and intimidate or taunt them, which I have witnessed very rarely. When a player throws a deliberate punch/elbow /kick to the head or some other blow with the express purpose of creating injury I have never seen one example in my own experience of the offender coming back to the point of the foul. As I mentioned they simply walk away.
If you watch the video and use the either a slow motion function or pause button to "chop up" the action into a structured time sequence you will see the following...as #15 makes his move into the lane he is trying to force an offensive play on three defenders. Number #4 makes a legal play on the ball and is in the process of tying the ball up [we do end up with a jump ball being called] When #4 is already on the ground you can clearly see that #15 is grabbed (fouled actually) by his elbow by number #24 on the opposing team. It is this contact he is wrenching away from (ripping the ball) which creates the momentum and subsequent kick."

To me, that's a "God complex!" It doesn't serve the good of the program, the officiating profession, the game of basketball and most importantly the boys who were playing - even the boy who committed the infraction.

[tref]

Originally Posted by lmfc saints

I have been in this position for over 5 years an active official for over 25 years and worked at just about every level of basketball you can conceive of - this would include International play, NCAA Division I (what I currently work), the NBA and other professional leagues. The reason I am giving you my five second resume is to lend some credence to what I can tell you about this video.

I hate when one feels compelled to drop a resume before giving their take...

Originally Posted by lmfc saints

The following was the "expert's" take on the play: "The action which resulted in the injury to the player was a basketball play. The kick is not intentional which would explain why the offensive player was so adamant in denying he did it on purpose.

Ron Artest was pretty adamant about the "accidental" elbow to the dome of Hardin! Players/coaches jobs are to put doubt in the officials mind.

Originally Posted by lmfc saints

If you are able to look at the footage again with fresh eyes I would contend that the offensive player didn't even realize he kicked the defender until afterwards (this is made clear by the body language of the offensive player and the fact he turns around coming back towards the defender to see what happened) I have viewed hundreds if not thousands of flagrant fouls - flagrant technicals and other unsportsmanlike acts - so I can tell you this with high certainty...When a player does what you contend in this case - a deliberate and intentional act they immediately walk away or stalk away from the the scene of the crime. They never come back to the player they just "fouled" unless it is to stand over them to further try and intimidate or taunt them, which I have witnessed very rarely. When a player throws a deliberate punch/elbow /kick to the head or some other blow with the express purpose of creating injury I have never seen one example in my own experience of the offender coming back to the point of the foul. As I mentioned they simply walk away.
If you watch the video and use the either a slow motion function or pause button to "chop up" the action into a structured time sequence you will see the following...as #15 makes his move into the lane he is trying to force an offensive play on three defenders. Number #4 makes a legal play on the ball and is in the process of tying the ball up [we do end up with a jump ball being called] When #4 is already on the ground you can clearly see that #15 is grabbed (fouled actually) by his elbow by number #24 on the opposing team. It is this contact he is wrenching away from (ripping the ball) which creates the momentum and subsequent kick."

Since the invention of camera phones, players know that their acts could be caught on tape. Nowadays players do come back to the scene &/or offer to help up opposing player to communicate "it was an accident."

Not buying it, ask Big Time if he thought the officials followed the proper held ball procedures.

[rockyroad]

Sorry, lmfc...but I gotta disagree with you here. The person who sent you that email didn't agree with your opinion on the play and that makes you mad. But he does give you a very logical breakdown of what he sees in the video. You can disagree with him, but what he sent you is NOT a "god complex" response. A "god complex" response would be:

"Who do you think you are questioning my officials? Don't you ever bother me with this type of thing again."

Disagreeing with you (and with my opinion of the play) does not equal a "god complex."

I am starting to wonder if the defender who got kicked is maybe your son? Nephew? Cousin?