you make the call

[Camron Rust]

I agree with BillyMac and the officiating director...I don't see this as anything more than a common foul. I do not think he kicked at the player on the floor. I think he was flailing around trying to get the ball free and the foot to the face was the unfortunate result. A foul, absolutely. Flagrant, I don't think so.

Heck, some might even make the argument that it should have been a block on the player that was on the floor since the player on the floor didn't have LGP (NCAA-M interpretation).

[Raymond]

I think the reason A1 goes to check on the kicked player is that A1 realized how hard he had kicked him when his own foot got injured from the kick.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I agree with BillyMac and the officiating director...I don't see this as anything more than a common foul. I do not think he kicked at the player on the floor. I think he was flailing around trying to get the ball free and the foot to the face was the unfortunate result. A foul, absolutely. Flagrant, I don't think so.

Heck, some might even make the argument that it should have been a block on the player that was on the floor since the player on the floor didn't have LGP (NCAA-M interpretation).

I respect your stance on this play! Since there was a held ball called & the accidental kick to the defenders grill happened during a dead ball period, you'd agree with an INT?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by tref

I respect your stance on this play! Since there was a held ball called & the accidental kick to the defenders grill happened during a dead ball period, you'd agree with an INT?

Since it was during a dead ball...it becomes incidental....and is ignored.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Since it was during a dead ball...it becomes incidental....and is ignore.

Got it, you have a common foul if it was live but since it occured during a dead ball you're ignoring.

[ballgame99]

The "God complex" guy's description of the action is exactly as I see it. The kick is a result of A1 twisting and trying to regain possession while being fouled from behind. And I'm guessing he gave his resume because his judgement/opinion on the matter was being questioned by the OP.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

The "God complex" guy's description of the action is exactly as I see it. The kick is a result of A1 twisting and trying to regain possession while being fouled from behind. And I'm guessing he gave his resume because his judgement/opinion on the matter was being questioned by the OP.

I think he was wrong about the play. Giving his resume wasn't necessary, if he's merely responding to a parent. Just state your disagreement and ignore the complaint. The resume is indicative of someone who knows he's wrong but feels like he needs to back his officials.

I could be wrong, and maybe he quotes his resume to everyone who questions his judgment. That would make for some long games, though.

[REFANDUMP]

What this kid did was wrong, in my opinion he definitely kicked AT the defender, but I don't think he MEANT to kick him in the face. In my opinion, he quickly realized what had happened and wanted to check and see if the defender was alright. He should be charged with a technical foul for the kicking action, but in my opinion that is all. It appears these are middle school aged kids, and where I would disagree with the league director/veteran official is in the fact that he suspects that kids this age would react to a situation like this in the same way that older players would. I don't think that's necessarily true. I suspect that the kid did learn a valuable lesson about keeping his cool on the floor and hopefully he and his parents write a letter of apology to the injured player. For the league director to act like there was NOTHING wrong, sounds like an excuse to not to have to deal with a bad situation.

[tref]

Originally Posted by REFANDUMP

What this kid did was wrong, in my opinion he definitely kicked AT the defender, but I don't think he MEANT to kick him in the face. In my opinion, he quickly realized what had happened and wanted to check and see if the defender was alright. He should be charged with a technical foul for the kicking action, but in my opinion that is all. .

By rule does it have to be either an INT or flagrant technical foul since the ball was dead? And the mere act of kicking is defined as fighting, so...

There are no single dead ball contact technical fouls in HS, we either ignore it or we have decisions to make.

Originally Posted by REFANDUMP

For the league director to act like there was NOTHING wrong, sounds like an excuse to not to have to deal with a bad situation.

We have a few of our own that have said this is NOTHING more than a common foul. So it is a judgment thing.

[ronald]

Originally Posted by lmfc saints

[email protected]I refer to such as a complex wherein one feels they can do no wrong therefore they can never accept responsibility and accountability that they were wrong about something. I see it at times in all of sports - particularly youth sports. I realize nobody wants a referee/umpire etc. that "flip/flops" his/her position on calls, but when the evidence is clear that a call was blown - own up instead of defending oneself at the expense of fair play. In this instance, even after seeing the video and what I believe was clear evidence of a flagrant foul, the officials for the game, the director of those officials (a gentleman who effusively claimed his professionalism: I have been in this position for over 5 years an active official for over 25 years and worked at just about every level of basketball you can conceive of - this would include International play, NCAA Division I (what I currently work), the NBA and other professional leagues. The reason I am giving you my five second resume is to lend some credence to what I can tell you about this video. The other point to outlining my own experience is I have watched video of other officials and myself for two decades and can break down tape with the best.), and the league director all continued to vehemently defend their interpretation of the play.

The following was the "expert's" take on the play: "The action which resulted in the injury to the player was a basketball play. The kick is not intentional which would explain why the offensive player was so adamant in denying he did it on purpose. If you are able to look at the footage again with fresh eyes I would contend that the offensive player didn't even realize he kicked the defender until afterwards (this is made clear by the body language of the offensive player and the fact he turns around coming back towards the defender to see what happened) I have viewed hundreds if not thousands of flagrant fouls - flagrant technicals and other unsportsmanlike acts - so I can tell you this with high certainty...When a player does what you contend in this case - a deliberate and intentional act they immediately walk away or stalk away from the the scene of the crime. They never come back to the player they just "fouled" unless it is to stand over them to further try and intimidate or taunt them, which I have witnessed very rarely. When a player throws a deliberate punch/elbow /kick to the head or some other blow with the express purpose of creating injury I have never seen one example in my own experience of the offender coming back to the point of the foul. As I mentioned they simply walk away.
If you watch the video and use the either a slow motion function or pause button to "chop up" the action into a structured time sequence you will see the following...as #15 makes his move into the lane he is trying to force an offensive play on three defenders. Number #4 makes a legal play on the ball and is in the process of tying the ball up [we do end up with a jump ball being called] When #4 is already on the ground you can clearly see that #15 is grabbed (fouled actually) by his elbow by number #24 on the opposing team. It is this contact he is wrenching away from (ripping the ball) which creates the momentum and subsequent kick."

To me, that's a "God complex!" It doesn't serve the good of the program, the officiating profession, the game of basketball and most importantly the boys who were playing - even the boy who committed the infraction.

i question this guys ability to breakdown tape. I can use the stop button on this video and see that the kid has started his kick before he is contacted on the elbow. it was deliberate. furthermore he clearly has is balance established on his left foot and then delivers the kick. when the kid has tied up the ball the white uniformed player is on two feet with balance, wrestle the ball away, goes back on right foot comes to balance on left foot stands straight up and starts kick before contacted on elbow.

[tref]

Originally Posted by ronald

i question this guys ability to breakdown tape. I can use the stop button on this video and see that the kid has started his kick before he is contacted on the elbow. it was deliberate. furthermore he clearly has is balance established on his left foot and then delivers the kick. when the kid has tied up the ball the white uniformed player is on two feet with balance, wrestle the ball away, goes back on right foot comes to balance on left foot stands straight up and starts kick before contacted on elbow.

+1

Tape dont lie (if you look at it honestly)


Not to be too critical, but I still say the officials held ball officiating skills were MIA.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

+1

Tape dont lie (if you look at it honestly)


Not to be too critical, but I still say the officials held ball officiating skills were MIA.

One can judge this play differently (Camron and Billy did), but dropping his resume was a bully tactic. He essentially told the OP to shut up and color.

[hoopguy]

A lot of coaches and refs do not like to see/admit any play in basketball is deliberately dirty. I think it helps to have played and to have played recently to be able to differentiate between a deliberate attempt to trip, kick or any dirty play vs. those who have not played ever or in a long time. There are very few times a ballplayer does not know exactly what he is doing and when a ballplayer is really out of control it is obvious. There are people out there who do not believe Artest's elbow was intentional. There is always someone who disagrees no matter how obvious.

To me this play was obviously intentional. For whatever reason, the kid kicked the other kid on purpose. Maybe he regretted it, maybe not, but he purposely kicked the other kid and if I saw this I would throw him out.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by hoopguy

A lot of coaches and refs do not like to see/admit any play in basketball is deliberately dirty. I think it helps to have played and to have played recently to be able to differentiate between a deliberate attempt to trip, kick or any dirty play vs. those who have not played ever or in a long time. There are very few times a ballplayer does not know exactly what he is doing and when a ballplayer is really out of control it is obvious. There are people out there who do not believe Artest's elbow was intentional. There is always someone who disagrees no matter how obvious.

What kind of crap is that?

Originally Posted by hoopguy

To me this play was obviously intentional. For whatever reason, the kid kicked the other kid on purpose. Maybe he regretted it, maybe not, but he purposely kicked the other kid and if I saw this I would throw him out.

A lot of players are idiots and having played, despite their claims that it makes a difference, doesn't give them any particular ability to discern anything about anything.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

What kind of crap is that?

I believe he's talking about officials having a high basketball IQ or a feel for the way the game is played due to them playing the game (at a high level) before picking up the whistle.

Personally, I think bball IQ can be learned if an official never played. You've got to think, if 2 officials that began the craft on the same day, but 1 played (at high competitive level) & the other 1 didnt, the former would advance quicker due to his knowledge & understanding of the game.

After all, how is a male virgin gonna tell another guy how to hit a womans G-Spot. IJS