you make the call

[ballgame99]

Didn't look deliberate to me. Not sure that I would have anything either.

[Adam]

It looks deliberate to me, he's done.

If I see it. It's quick, and neither official has the same angle as the camera, so it's very possible they didn't see it. Turn this video in to the league, though, and let them deal with it. This is the sort of play that can be dealt with after the fact. They may not agree with me that it was deliberate, but that's not a normal movement IMO.

[Amesman]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It looks deliberate to me, he's done.

Turn this video in to the league, though, and let them deal with it. This is the sort of play that can be dealt with after the fact. They may not agree with me that it was deliberate, but that's not a normal movement IMO.

+1

This is not the act of some clumsy, underachieving, frustrated ball player.

[tref]

Judging by the officials shorts, this looks like some off season ball. Never know what you're gonna get there when it comes to officiating, coaching & players alike.
BUT the L is wearing college wides so that makes me pay a bit more attention to him as it suggests he may have a college schedule.

This video is great reinforcement of why we need to close down on held balls... especially in the paint.

Not knowing whats happened up to this point in the game, the score seems to favor A1 & I wouldn't think he would be in frustration mode. It looks flagrant to me, I would like to believe I would use proper held ball procedures & not have to respond to this play as opposed to (the OPs question) reacting to it. It appears that the L was more concerned about his holding his perfect signal up high than using his voice while dead balling his call & I wonder what the T was looking at after the whistle.

Curious, was this called a held ball & nothing more??

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by tref

Judging by the officials shorts, this looks like some off season ball. Never know what you're gonna get there when it comes to officiating, coaching & players alike.
BUT the L is wearing college wides so that makes me pay a bit more attention to him as it suggests he may have a college schedule.

This video is great reinforcement of why we need to close down on held balls... especially in the paint.

Not knowing whats happened up to this point in the game, the score seems to favor A1 & I wouldn't think he would be in frustration mode. It looks flagrant to me, I would like to believe I would use proper held ball procedures & not have to respond to this play as opposed to (the OPs question) reacting to it. It appears that the L was more concerned about his holding his perfect signal up high than using his voice while dead balling his call & I wonder what the T was looking at after the whistle.

Curious, was this called a held ball & nothing more??

Frankly, I don't care what happened up to this point in the game. The kid got frustrated at the held ball and kicked out of frustration. This is a flagrant T all the way.

Tref, you make a good point about moving closer to the play on the held ball. If the L gets in quickly I don't know if it prevents the kick but at least he sees it and can deal with it. As Snaq pointed out, if the officials had the same view as the camera maybe (hopefully) a call is made.

JugglingRef...it doesn't have to be deliberate to be a flagrant:

4-19-4

A flagrant foul may be a personal or technical foul of a violent or savage nature, or a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct. It may or may not be intentional. If personal, it involves, but is not limited to violent contact such as: striking, kicking and kneeing. If technical, it involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct. Fighting is a flagrant act.

[Nevadaref]

In the NBA that's nothing because the officials have to account for a player's momentum.

[bainsey]

Flagrant T. Send him to the bench, talk with the coach, and hope the kid learns his lesson.

[tref]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Frankly, I don't care what happened up to this point in the game. The kid got frustrated at the held ball and kicked out of frustration. This is a flagrant T all the way.

I don't "care" either, just saying I probably wouldn't have expected such frustration on a simple held ball call either... unless some things occured earlier in the game. Not that it makes a difference, this is a flagrant act. Expect the unexpected, right

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

Didn't look deliberate to me. Not sure that I would have anything either.

As much as I hate to "swim against the tide" of popular, and esteemed, opinion, I agree. Held ball. Pivot. Momentum. Inadvertent kick. After the play, it appears that he comes back to check on the kid on the floor.

[lmfc saints]

I originally posted the question re: the call. I took advice and sent to league director - who forwarded to his officiating director - an official who claims - and with great prideful vigor and a listing of his prolific credits as a D1 Women's Basketball official (no disrespect for such referees intended) - great experience etc. and thus patronized me with such. His response was much less than what I had hoped for. He, like Billymac did not see anything wrong with the incident - calling it, "purely a basketball play." I was obviously disappointed and totally disagree with his call on the matter. Too bad for all - the program, the boy who committed the infraction (who will not learn from it) and obviously the boy who received the kick in the face - along with his $5,000 worth of dental work. A case of protecting image of program and the officiating director's (I think highly of myself) reputation ("God Complex" some referees seem to inflict on the game!) over against player safety!

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by lmfc saints

... ("God Complex" some referees seem to inflict on the game!) over against player safety!

What's a "God complex" and what does it have to do with the officials in this game and missing a call (which I agree they missed)?

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

After the play, it appears that he comes back to check on the kid on the floor.

Immediate remorse. I just watched the video again and I have a hard time seeing that as anything but deliberate.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... After the play, it appears that he comes back to check on the kid on the floor.

I addressed that in my post. Showing remorse doesn't mean that the act didn't happened. You never did anything on purpose then immediately realized you were wrong?

[rockyroad]

Still not buying that this was just a "momentum" thing. If it was momentum, why didn't the kicker end up stumbling over the defender? That's what happens when you are moving forward (momentum) and your foot suddenly stops because it contacts something - you stumble over whatever it was...nope. This kid kicked the defender in the face and then started to walk away.

[tref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Still not buying that this was just a "momentum" thing. If it was momentum, why didn't the kicker end up stumbling over the defender? That's what happens when you are moving forward (momentum) and your foot suddenly stops because it contacts something - you stumble over whatever it was...nope. This kid kicked the defender in the face and then started to walk away.

Yeah, there is a big difference between a kick & a stumble. Maybe he should tryout for the kicker position in football.