Video: Not a travel in NBA, but would you call this a travel in HS or NCAA

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If that is true, I don't think he had full possession at anytime during that game.

Saying he didn't have "full possession" is just a convenient cop out to avoid making the call. The instant he has 2 hands on the ball (and the ball doesn't subsequently shift from that position) he had possession (was holding the ball). That point occurred practically the instant he touched the ball.

The camera angle is away (or blocks the view) from his hands or the ball, so to say with clarity he has possession is kind of silly when you cannot really see the ball. Also I want clear possession, not what I think is possession or assume there is possession. I guess as a football official I do not consider possession until they bring the ball into their body and that was not clear on this tape even at slow motion. And having seen enough basketball over the years players do not always cleanly catch the ball. I have a HS tape of a game at our state finals (I may post it now) where a player brings the ball in and it is debatable if possession takes place with the foot on the floor. And every time I have showed this tape there is a lot of debate.

Peace

[IUgrad92]

This is clearly a travel by HS standards. The NBA is about entertainment first, rules second. Hence being called the NBE.

Sadly, at least in regards to travel calls, the NCAA is going more towards the NBA philosophy. In the tournament games I watched, I saw a valid travel situation nearly every trip down the court, especially on wing play. Example, player catches a pass in the air, comes down on one foot then the other, and it seem like 75% of the time the player uses the second foot down as the pivot and it's seldom called. Game interrupter, maybe. But what's the purpose of having the rule in the book if it isn't enforced?

[APG]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

This is clearly a travel by HS standards. The NBA is about entertainment first, rules second. Hence being called the NBE.

It's a good thing the NBA official followed the rule here.

And should I assume you'll be calling NCAA men's basketball, NCAAE, since as you put it, you saw a valid travel situation every trip down the court? I mean they've also added the RA as well as some other absolutes that mimic some NBA philosophies.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

It's a good thing the NBA official followed the rule here.

And should I assume you'll be calling NCAA men's basketball, NCAAE, since as you put it, you saw a valid travel situation every trip down the court? I mean they've also added the RA as well as some other absolutes that mimic some NBA philosophies.

Never seem to hear much complaining about all the things let go at the college level for sure.

Peace

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

It's a good thing the NBA official followed the rule here.

And should I assume you'll be calling NCAA men's basketball, NCAAE, since as you put it, you saw a valid travel situation every trip down the court? I mean they've also added the RA as well as some other absolutes that mimic some NBA philosophies.

I'm not the one that coined the acronym NBE, but it does fit. Like many others on this board, I think NBA games are un-watchable I guess that's from the viewpoint of a basketball traditionalist.

I still have hope for the NCAA, for now. I'll be seeing a few D1 officials this summer and I'm going to seek their opinions in regards to the travel philosophy within the conferences they work, etc.

[APG]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

I'm not the one that coined the acronym NBE, but it does fit. Like many others on this board, I think NBA games are un-watchable I guess that's from the viewpoint of a basketball traditionalist.

I still have hope for the NCAA, for now. I'll be seeing a few D1 officials this summer and I'm going to seek their opinions in regards to the travel philosophy within the conferences they work, etc.

All professional sports have certain rules geared towards being more entertaining...hell when you compare some NFL rules and enforcement compared to NCAA rules, you'd see how blatant it is. Am I to assume those same people that call the NBA the NBE or whatever silly acronym they're saying these days call the NFL the NFE?

Again, for all supposed things the NBA and their officials do in the name of entertainment, according to you, NCAA officials are doing the EXACT SAME THING...hell the rules committee and the head of officiating have gone so far as to add some of those very same rules and philosophies. Are those same people going to call NCAA men's basketball NCAAE?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

I'm not the one that coined the acronym NBE, but it does fit. Like many others on this board, I think NBA games are un-watchable I guess that's from the viewpoint of a basketball traditionalist.

I still have hope for the NCAA, for now. I'll be seeing a few D1 officials this summer and I'm going to seek their opinions in regards to the travel philosophy within the conferences they work, etc.

Just because everyone says something does not mean it is true. Like many things in life people stereotype things they either do not really know or pay no attention to, but base their opinions off of things they hear from multiple sources. I guess it is sad because I would think officials would do more admitting to what they do not observe than listening to the media or uneducated people. If you watch NBA games at all (and I admit to not being a big fan of the NBA at least during the regular season), you will see many traveling calls made even on the so-called stars that everyone claims those calls are ignored based on who commits the violation. There was a tape shown of Doc Rivers' son of making multiple violations in gathering the ball on this very site while he was playing for Duke. Did anyone say anything about the officials not adhering to the rules and worried about entertainment? Nope.

Peace

[just another ref]

Yes, the video is slowed down. Having noted that, how can anyone say this is not a travel. What did it look like in real time? Maybe somebody can post it. This is not a real fast moving play, I would think it still would be plenty obvious to call. The problem is, this play, and others, such as all the crap in the Austin Rivers video posted earlier, are all missed/ignored so often now that I feel guilty when I do call them.

"Mr. Ref, everybody else has let us do that all year."

Sad, but true.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

"Mr. Ref, everybody else has let us do that all year."

Sad, but true.

I have never heard anyone say that on a traveling violation. Maybe someone standing outside the box or wearing an illegal undershirt, but never on a travel or a foul.

Peace

[APG]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

J\There was a tape shown of Doc Rivers' son of making multiple violations in gathering the ball on this very site while he was playing for Duke. Did anyone say anything about the officials not adhering to the rules and worried about entertainment? Nope.

Peace

Of course not...but replace Doc Rivers' son with Kobe Bryant or LeBron James, and then the officials aren't enforcing the rules and it's allllll entertainment!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Of course not...but replace Doc Rivers' son with Kobe Bryant or LeBron James, and then the officials aren't enforcing the rules and it's allllll entertainment!

Even with the fact that I have seen Kobe Bryant and LeBron James called for more travels in the past month than I saw in that one game with Rivers?



Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The camera angle is away (or blocks the view) from his hands or the ball, so to say with clarity he has possession is kind of silly when you cannot really see the ball.

No it does not. I can see the ball clearly the whole time in that video. At most 20% of the ball might be obscured for a moment, but no where near enough to make it hard to tell if he caught it or not. It really isn't that hard to tell he had full and clear control of the ball.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Also I want clear possession, not what I think is possession or assume there is possession. I guess as a football official I do not consider possession until they bring the ball into their body and that was not clear on this tape even at slow motion.

That might be true in football, but this is not football. Player don't tuck the ball up to the body in basketball so applying a football philosophy really doesn't fit.

In basketball, if they have it between their hands, it is possession. You might wait a moment to ensure it doesn't move to confirm it was possession, but the possession begins the moment the ball is in their hands, not brought into their body.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And having seen enough basketball over the years players do not always cleanly catch the ball. I have a HS tape of a game at our state finals (I may post it now) where a player brings the ball in and it is debatable if possession takes place with the foot on the floor. And every time I have showed this tape there is a lot of debate.

Peace

Sure, but that is not what happened in this video. From the moment it got to his hands, the ball was solidly controlled.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

No it does not. I can see the ball clearly the whole time in that video. At most 20% of the ball might be obscured for a moment, but no where near enough to make it hard to tell if he caught it or not. It really isn't that hard to tell he had full and clear control of the ball.

We will just have to disagree on this point. I see a ball on the other side of Bynam's body and no clear vision of how or when the player has secured the ball. I see both arms go towards the ball but do not see if he secured the ball with one or two hands and when based on his feet. If I have to look that hard to determine a violation, then it did not happen. No more than I would do the same in a carry violation. It is either obvious to the naked eye or it did not happen.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That might be true in football, but this is not football. Player don't tuck the ball up to the body in basketball so applying a football philosophy really doesn't fit.

In basketball, if they have it between their hands, it is possession. You might wait a moment to ensure it doesn't move to confirm it was possession, but the possession begins the moment the ball is in their hands, not brought into their body.

Camron, the term "gather" is used all the time in basketball officiating circles to establish when a player is clearly attempting to catch the ball to shoot the basketball. I am not using a term that is strictly rulebook based in football. And players do not always bring the ball to their body to catch a football either. But there usually is a time frame or action where a player has to display some control of the ball and that is no different than what many might do to determine a gather. And again all I am saying is if I am going to say his pivot foot was on the ground when he caught the ball, I would like a little more than a super slow motion video for a play I will have to determine in real time. A lot of things happen that we do not technically call in many aspects of basketball officiating.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Sure, but that is not what happened in this video. From the moment it got to his hands, the ball was solidly controlled.

We obviously disagree and just because you say so does not mean that everyone that watches the video agrees with your take as I would not expect everyone to agree with mine. But if you want to call that a travel that is on you. I just want a little more than a video I have to slow down. And I would think that anyone in live speed calls this a travel probably anticipated the call rather than processed entirely what took place. I love how we get ultra upset because a travel that took place is not called, but we do almost never focus on the travels that are called that clearly are not there. And HS officials have a tendency to call many of the latter than those at the higher levels, which is why I have said that traveling is the most inconsistent call in all of basketball, not just the NBA.

Peace

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We obviously disagree and just because you say so does not mean that everyone that watches the video agrees with your take as I would not expect everyone to agree with mine. But if you want to call that a travel that is on you. I just want a little more than a video I have to slow down. And I would think that anyone in live speed calls this a travel probably anticipated the call rather than processed entirely what took place. I love how we get ultra upset because a travel that took place is not called, but we do almost never focus on the travels that are called that clearly are not there. And HS officials have a tendency to call many of the latter than those at the higher levels, which is why I have said that traveling is the most inconsistent call in all of basketball, not just the NBA.

Peace

I think that as we get older, it does take longer to process what took place on a particular play. Thank God that hasn't started happening with me yet.

This OP play is a fairly easy travel call in an HS game, at live speed. I guess some just have the ability to process it faster. To say that it would be an 'anticipated' call only shows disdain for those able make this call correctly at live speed.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

I think that as we get older, it does take longer to process what took place on a particular play. Thank God that hasn't started happening with me yet.

This OP play is a fairly easy travel call in an HS game, at live speed. I guess some just have the ability to process it faster. To say that it would be an 'anticipated' call only shows disdain for those able make this call correctly at live speed.

Well said.