Video: Not a travel in NBA, but would you call this a travel in HS or NCAA

[JRutledge]

That is not a travel at any level, let alone HS or college. Touching the ball does not constitute possession.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That is not a travel at any level, let alone HS or college. Touching the ball does not constitute possession.

Peace

I can understand the idea behind not calling this (particularly at full speed), but "touching"? He catches it with two hands, right foot on the floor, as he's walking. That's his pivot foot (in NFHS and NCAA) now, but he proceeds to lift it and put it back down in a step to gather for a shot. How is that not a travel, by rule?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I can understand the idea behind not calling this (particularly at full speed), but "touching"? He catches it with two hands, right foot on the floor, as he's walking. That's his pivot foot (in NFHS and NCAA) now, but he proceeds to lift it and put it back down in a step to gather for a shot. How is that not a travel, by rule?

If I have to look at slow motion replay to determine when he had the ball, then this would not be a good call to make. This is not about the NBA or any other level, I am not calling it that close ever at any game with any kind of players on the floor. We do not call these just by rule, we call them by judgment as well. I am not confident he had full possession of the ball when the foot was on the floor.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Absolute travel at HS and NCAA. It really isn't that close. (NBA, I don't have an opinion, not sure what their rule is and don't care to look it up).

At full speed, it may or may not be "easy" to tell, but it was a travel and it isn't really that hard to tell if you look at it...and video backs it up and shows it wasn't really that close at all. He caught the ball as the right foot came down and the left foot was being lifted, he then stepped forward with the left foot making the right the pivot, then again with the right foot (becoming a travel when it touched).

This gave him a 2+ foot shorter shot and most definitely improved his situation.

For anyone that says it wasn't "much" of a travel, how much is too much? If you can tell he did but it was close, that is no reason to not call it. We're paid to decide if they did or did not travel. We're supposed to interrupt the game when a player infringes on the rules. If they wanted the travel call to allow an extra step, they'd write it that way.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If I have to look at slow motion replay to determine when he had the ball, then this would not be a good call to make. This is not about the NBA or any other level, I am not calling it that close ever at any game with any kind of players on the floor. We do not call these just by rule, we call them by judgment as well. I am not confident he had full possession of the ball when the foot was on the floor.

Peace

If that is true, I don't think he had full possession at anytime during that game.

Saying he didn't have "full possession" is just a convenient cop out to avoid making the call. The instant he has 2 hands on the ball (and the ball doesn't subsequently shift from that position) he had possession (was holding the ball). That point occurred practically the instant he touched the ball.

[APG]

OP is right that this is not a travel under NBA rules

With the benefit of this being slowed down, yes it's a travel under NF/NCAA rules...probably wouldn't look that obvious in real time.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If that is true, I don't think he had full possession at anytime during that game.

Saying he didn't have "full possession" is just a convenient cop out to avoid making the call. The instant he has 2 hands on the ball (and the ball doesn't subsequently shift from that position) he had possession (was holding the ball). That point occurred practically the instant he touched the ball.

The camera angle is away (or blocks the view) from his hands or the ball, so to say with clarity he has possession is kind of silly when you cannot really see the ball. Also I want clear possession, not what I think is possession or assume there is possession. I guess as a football official I do not consider possession until they bring the ball into their body and that was not clear on this tape even at slow motion. And having seen enough basketball over the years players do not always cleanly catch the ball. I have a HS tape of a game at our state finals (I may post it now) where a player brings the ball in and it is debatable if possession takes place with the foot on the floor. And every time I have showed this tape there is a lot of debate.

Peace

[IUgrad92]

This is clearly a travel by HS standards. The NBA is about entertainment first, rules second. Hence being called the NBE.

Sadly, at least in regards to travel calls, the NCAA is going more towards the NBA philosophy. In the tournament games I watched, I saw a valid travel situation nearly every trip down the court, especially on wing play. Example, player catches a pass in the air, comes down on one foot then the other, and it seem like 75% of the time the player uses the second foot down as the pivot and it's seldom called. Game interrupter, maybe. But what's the purpose of having the rule in the book if it isn't enforced?

[APG]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

This is clearly a travel by HS standards. The NBA is about entertainment first, rules second. Hence being called the NBE.

It's a good thing the NBA official followed the rule here.

And should I assume you'll be calling NCAA men's basketball, NCAAE, since as you put it, you saw a valid travel situation every trip down the court? I mean they've also added the RA as well as some other absolutes that mimic some NBA philosophies.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The camera angle is away (or blocks the view) from his hands or the ball, so to say with clarity he has possession is kind of silly when you cannot really see the ball.

No it does not. I can see the ball clearly the whole time in that video. At most 20% of the ball might be obscured for a moment, but no where near enough to make it hard to tell if he caught it or not. It really isn't that hard to tell he had full and clear control of the ball.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Also I want clear possession, not what I think is possession or assume there is possession. I guess as a football official I do not consider possession until they bring the ball into their body and that was not clear on this tape even at slow motion.

That might be true in football, but this is not football. Player don't tuck the ball up to the body in basketball so applying a football philosophy really doesn't fit.

In basketball, if they have it between their hands, it is possession. You might wait a moment to ensure it doesn't move to confirm it was possession, but the possession begins the moment the ball is in their hands, not brought into their body.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And having seen enough basketball over the years players do not always cleanly catch the ball. I have a HS tape of a game at our state finals (I may post it now) where a player brings the ball in and it is debatable if possession takes place with the foot on the floor. And every time I have showed this tape there is a lot of debate.

Peace

Sure, but that is not what happened in this video. From the moment it got to his hands, the ball was solidly controlled.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

No it does not. I can see the ball clearly the whole time in that video. At most 20% of the ball might be obscured for a moment, but no where near enough to make it hard to tell if he caught it or not. It really isn't that hard to tell he had full and clear control of the ball.

We will just have to disagree on this point. I see a ball on the other side of Bynam's body and no clear vision of how or when the player has secured the ball. I see both arms go towards the ball but do not see if he secured the ball with one or two hands and when based on his feet. If I have to look that hard to determine a violation, then it did not happen. No more than I would do the same in a carry violation. It is either obvious to the naked eye or it did not happen.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That might be true in football, but this is not football. Player don't tuck the ball up to the body in basketball so applying a football philosophy really doesn't fit.

In basketball, if they have it between their hands, it is possession. You might wait a moment to ensure it doesn't move to confirm it was possession, but the possession begins the moment the ball is in their hands, not brought into their body.

Camron, the term "gather" is used all the time in basketball officiating circles to establish when a player is clearly attempting to catch the ball to shoot the basketball. I am not using a term that is strictly rulebook based in football. And players do not always bring the ball to their body to catch a football either. But there usually is a time frame or action where a player has to display some control of the ball and that is no different than what many might do to determine a gather. And again all I am saying is if I am going to say his pivot foot was on the ground when he caught the ball, I would like a little more than a super slow motion video for a play I will have to determine in real time. A lot of things happen that we do not technically call in many aspects of basketball officiating.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Sure, but that is not what happened in this video. From the moment it got to his hands, the ball was solidly controlled.

We obviously disagree and just because you say so does not mean that everyone that watches the video agrees with your take as I would not expect everyone to agree with mine. But if you want to call that a travel that is on you. I just want a little more than a video I have to slow down. And I would think that anyone in live speed calls this a travel probably anticipated the call rather than processed entirely what took place. I love how we get ultra upset because a travel that took place is not called, but we do almost never focus on the travels that are called that clearly are not there. And HS officials have a tendency to call many of the latter than those at the higher levels, which is why I have said that traveling is the most inconsistent call in all of basketball, not just the NBA.

Peace

[brainbrian]

Here it is at full speed:

Andrew Bynum 3pt attempt - WHAT IS HE THINKING? - YouTube

[JRutledge]

Oh God no!!! No way I am calling that live, nor would I be sure.

Peace

[canuckrefguy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Oh God no!!! No way I am calling that live, nor would I be sure.

+1 - emphatically

[JugglingReferee]

This is a travel. The left foot touches the floor after possession is gained, thereby establishing the right foot as the pivot foot. When the right foot touches the floor at a new point of contact before the release for shot, it is a travel.