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Old Tue Feb 07, 2012, 10:49pm
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NCAA OOB Case Play?

I had a play tonight that I'm 100% certain I got right. But the coach who disagreed with me could not be convinced. So I'm hoping there's a case play that someone can share with me. Here's the play:

A1 makes a throw-in pass from the endline. A2 steps on the sideline boundary and catches the throw-in pass while standing out of bounds. I awarded Team B the ball at the spot where A2 caught the ball, with no time having elapsed off the game clock.

Coach was adamant that Team B's throw-in should be from the spot of A1's original throw-in. This is covered in 7-6-2 and 9-5-2b. But there's no case play that I can find. Anybody help me out?
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Old Tue Feb 07, 2012, 11:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
I had a play tonight that I'm 100% certain I got right. But the coach who disagreed with me could not be convinced. So I'm hoping there's a case play that someone can share with me. Here's the play:

A1 makes a throw-in pass from the endline. A2 steps on the sideline boundary and catches the throw-in pass while standing out of bounds. I awarded Team B the ball at the spot where A2 caught the ball, with no time having elapsed off the game clock.

Coach was adamant that Team B's throw-in should be from the spot of A1's original throw-in. This is covered in 7-6-2 and 9-5-2b. But there's no case play that I can find. Anybody help me out?
I can't see a case play but I think you were right. 7-6-2 states that "the throw-in pass shall touch another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched."

My opinion is that it was touched by a player causing it to be out of bounds. It wasn't a throw-in violation but an out of bounds violation by A2.
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Old Wed Feb 08, 2012, 12:18am
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Since the throw in never legally ended the ball would go back to the original designated spot to Team B.

Interesting though, in the Maryland-Clemson game B1 touched it not A1 regardless, the designated spot would remain as at the start of the play.

I couldn't find it in the case book, however I made some phone calls and that's what I came up with.

Last edited by SoInZebra; Wed Feb 08, 2012 at 12:31am.
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Old Wed Feb 08, 2012, 12:29am
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So what does this mean then? "the throw-in pass shall touch another player (inbounds or out of bounds)
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Old Wed Feb 08, 2012, 12:41am
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Not that I agree with SoinZebra's interpretation but your wording is from the NFHS rule book, this is an NCAA question.
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Old Wed Feb 08, 2012, 12:42am
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Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer View Post
Not that I agree with SoinZebra's interpretation but your wording is from the NFHS rule book, this is an NCAA question.
Oops, my bad.
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Old Wed Feb 08, 2012, 12:48am
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Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes View Post
Oops, my bad.
No problem haha..

Here's the pertinent NCAA rule:

Rule 7, Section 6.
Throw-In

Art. 2. A throw-in shall end when a passed ball touches or is legally touched by an inbounds player or when a player, who is located on the playing court, touches and causes the ball to be out of bounds or when the throw-in team commits a throw-in violation.

Rule 9, Section 5
Throw-In Provisions

Art. 1. The thrower-in shall not:
b. Fail to pass the ball directly into the playing court so that after it crosses the boundary line, it touches or is legally touched by an inbounds player or touched by a player, who is on the playing court, and causes the ball to be out of bounds.

Art. 2. No player other than the thrower-in shall:
b. Be out of bounds when he or she touches or is touched by the ball after it has crossed the vertical inside plane of the boundary line. Repeated infractions shall result in (men) a CLASS B technical foul and (women) a player/substitute technical foul.
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Last edited by APG; Wed Feb 08, 2012 at 12:55am.
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Old Wed Feb 08, 2012, 03:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoInZebra View Post
Since the throw in never legally ended the ball would go back to the original designated spot to Team B.

Interesting though, in the Maryland-Clemson game B1 touched it not A1 regardless, the designated spot would remain as at the start of the play.

I couldn't find it in the case book, however I made some phone calls and that's what I came up with.
Can't be...and I'll tell you why....

Throwin restrictions are generally placed on the thrower and the thrower is who violates if they do not meet the requirements of the throwin. If the thrower violates, the defensive team would get the ball. What if the player who was OOB was the defensive team? Does that mean the thrower violated? No. Would you give them the ball? No. You'd give it back to team A. So, what is the violation? Touching the ball while OOB. Where was the violation? Where the ball was touched.

Look at Rule 7, Section 6, Art. 2....where it says the throwin ends when a player OOB touches the ball....sounds like it legally ends.

Next look at Rule 9, Section 5, Art 1 where it says...

"The thrower-in shall not: Fail to pass the ball directly into the playing court so that after it crosses the boundary line, it touches or is legally touched by an inbounds player or when a player, who is located on the playing court, touches and causes the ball to be out of bounds "

It seems to me that the NCAA doesn't define playing court the same way as the NFHS. If they did, this rule wouldn't make any sense since it would be impossible for a player to touch the ball and cause it to be OOB if they were only inbounds.

So, if a player, who touches the ball causes the ball to be OOB, the throwin both ends and was legally executed by the thrower.

The violation is a basic OOB violation....spot of the violation.
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Last edited by Camron Rust; Wed Feb 08, 2012 at 03:36am.
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Old Wed Feb 08, 2012, 03:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
I had a play tonight that I'm 100% certain I got right. But the coach who disagreed with me could not be convinced. So I'm hoping there's a case play that someone can share with me. Here's the play:

A1 makes a throw-in pass from the endline. A2 steps on the sideline boundary and catches the throw-in pass while standing out of bounds. I awarded Team B the ball at the spot where A2 caught the ball, with no time having elapsed off the game clock.

Coach was adamant that Team B's throw-in should be from the spot of A1's original throw-in. This is covered in 7-6-2 and 9-5-2b. But there's no case play that I can find. Anybody help me out?
During the '10-11 season my partners and I discussed this exact situation after a scrimmage and at the time I e-mailed Debbie Williamson. I'm not home right now so I can't find her exact response. I'll try to find it when I get home later this morning.
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Old Wed Feb 08, 2012, 07:43am
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Down Memory Lane With NFHS Rules ...

About twenty-five years ago, the NFHS ruled this a throwin violation. Then it was changed to an out of bounds violation. I'm sure that Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. will be moseying along shortly to confirm, or deny, my interpretation. Right now he's probably taking his early morning nap.
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Old Wed Feb 08, 2012, 09:12am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoInZebra View Post
Since the throw in never legally ended the ball would go back to the original designated spot to Team B.

Interesting though, in the Maryland-Clemson game B1 touched it not A1 regardless, the designated spot would remain as at the start of the play.

I couldn't find it in the case book, however I made some phone calls and that's what I came up with.
You're wrong, and Camron is right. This rule is administered the same in FED and NCAA -- it's an OOB violation, not a TI violation.
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Old Wed Feb 08, 2012, 09:13am
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Can't be...and I'll tell you why....

Throwin restrictions are generally placed on the thrower and the thrower is who violates if they do not meet the requirements of the throwin. If the thrower violates, the defensive team would get the ball. What if the player who was OOB was the defensive team? Does that mean the thrower violated? No. Would you give them the ball? No. You'd give it back to team A. So, what is the violation? Touching the ball while OOB. Where was the violation? Where the ball was touched.

Look at Rule 7, Section 6, Art. 2....where it says the throwin ends when a player OOB touches the ball....sounds like it legally ends.

Next look at Rule 9, Section 5, Art 1 where it says...

"The thrower-in shall not: Fail to pass the ball directly into the playing court so that after it crosses the boundary line, it touches or is legally touched by an inbounds player or when a player, who is located on the playing court, touches and causes the ball to be out of bounds "

It seems to me that the NCAA doesn't define playing court the same way as the NFHS. If they did, this rule wouldn't make any sense since it would be impossible for a player to touch the ball and cause it to be OOB if they were only inbounds.

So, if a player, who touches the ball causes the ball to be OOB, the throwin both ends and was legally executed by the thrower.

The violation is a basic OOB violation....spot of the violation.
Cameron- My original thought was to agree with you, however a variation of this play happened on 2/7 at the end of the Maryland/Clemson game. With 1.7 seconds left A1 had a designated spot throw in on the endline in his backcourt. A1 makes a long pass and the first person to touch the ball was B1 who was in the air but left the playing court with one foot on a boundary line in Team A's frontcourt. The crew gave the ball back to A at the original designated spot with no time off the clock. I texted the national coordinator and he agreed with the crew's administration:

Ball was never legally inbounded. Same as opponent or teammate catching throw in OOB.
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Old Wed Feb 08, 2012, 09:14am
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JetMetFan, if you could come up with that ruling from Debbie, I'd really appreciate it. I don't think I want to bug Art Hyland with this one.
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Old Wed Feb 08, 2012, 10:30am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoInZebra View Post
Cameron- My original thought was to agree with you, however a variation of this play happened on 2/7 at the end of the Maryland/Clemson game. With 1.7 seconds left A1 had a designated spot throw in on the endline in his backcourt. A1 makes a long pass and the first person to touch the ball was B1 who was in the air but left the playing court with one foot on a boundary line in Team A's frontcourt. The crew gave the ball back to A at the original designated spot with no time off the clock. I texted the national coordinator and he agreed with the crew's administration:

Ball was never legally inbounded. Same as opponent or teammate catching throw in OOB.
This ruling is contradictory to A.R. 182:

After a goal by Team B, Team A has the ball for a throw-in from the end of the playing court at which the goal was made and attempts to pass the ball inbounds.

(1) B1 kicks the ball along the sideline; or

(2) B1 kicks the ball along the end line from where the throw-in was attempted.

RULING: (1) The kick is a floor violation and the ball shall be awarded to Team A at a designated spot nearest to where the violation occurred.
(Rule 9-6 and 7-5-1)

(2) Kicking the ball is a floor violation. Consequently, Team A shall retain the privilege to the throw-in from anywhere along the end line.

In (1) and (2), the throw-in was not legally completed since the kick is not a legal touch. As a result, neither the game clock nor the shot clock shall be started because of the violation.

(Rule 7-6-2, 7-5-6.a.4 and 9-6)
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Last edited by Raymond; Wed Feb 08, 2012 at 10:35am.
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Old Wed Feb 08, 2012, 11:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Can't be...and I'll tell you why....

Throwin restrictions are generally placed on the thrower and the thrower is who violates if they do not meet the requirements of the throwin. If the thrower violates, the defensive team would get the ball. What if the player who was OOB was the defensive team? Does that mean the thrower violated? No. Would you give them the ball? No. You'd give it back to team A. So, what is the violation? Touching the ball while OOB. Where was the violation? Where the ball was touched.

Look at Rule 7, Section 6, Art. 2....where it says the throwin ends when a player OOB touches the ball....sounds like it legally ends.

Next look at Rule 9, Section 5, Art 1 where it says...

"The thrower-in shall not: Fail to pass the ball directly into the playing court so that after it crosses the boundary line, it touches or is legally touched by an inbounds player or when a player, who is located on the playing court, touches and causes the ball to be out of bounds "

It seems to me that the NCAA doesn't define playing court the same way as the NFHS. If they did, this rule wouldn't make any sense since it would be impossible for a player to touch the ball and cause it to be OOB if they were only inbounds.

So, if a player, who touches the ball causes the ball to be OOB, the throwin both ends and was legally executed by the thrower.

The violation is a basic OOB violation....spot of the violation.
Actually A.R. 182 states a floor-violation by an opponent does not cause the throw-in to end but ensuing throw-in is from a spot nearest to the violation.

Rule 9-15 addresses where throw-ins will occur when penalizing violations 9-3 through 9-14:

Art. 1. The ball shall become dead or remain dead when a violation occurs. The ball shall be awarded to a nearby opponent for a throw-in at a designated spot nearest to where the violation occurred.

The play from the OP falls under 9-4-1 and 9-5-2b so should be administered as stated in 9-15-1 and A. R. 182.
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Last edited by Raymond; Wed Feb 08, 2012 at 11:05am.
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