NCAA OOB Case Play?

[Scrapper1]

I had a play tonight that I'm 100% certain I got right. But the coach who disagreed with me could not be convinced. So I'm hoping there's a case play that someone can share with me. Here's the play:

A1 makes a throw-in pass from the endline. A2 steps on the sideline boundary and catches the throw-in pass while standing out of bounds. I awarded Team B the ball at the spot where A2 caught the ball, with no time having elapsed off the game clock.

Coach was adamant that Team B's throw-in should be from the spot of A1's original throw-in. This is covered in 7-6-2 and 9-5-2b. But there's no case play that I can find. Anybody help me out?

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I had a play tonight that I'm 100% certain I got right. But the coach who disagreed with me could not be convinced. So I'm hoping there's a case play that someone can share with me. Here's the play:

A1 makes a throw-in pass from the endline. A2 steps on the sideline boundary and catches the throw-in pass while standing out of bounds. I awarded Team B the ball at the spot where A2 caught the ball, with no time having elapsed off the game clock.

Coach was adamant that Team B's throw-in should be from the spot of A1's original throw-in. This is covered in 7-6-2 and 9-5-2b. But there's no case play that I can find. Anybody help me out?

I can't see a case play but I think you were right. 7-6-2 states that "the throw-in pass shall touch another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched."

My opinion is that it was touched by a player causing it to be out of bounds. It wasn't a throw-in violation but an out of bounds violation by A2.

[SoInZebra]

Since the throw in never legally ended the ball would go back to the original designated spot to Team B.

Interesting though, in the Maryland-Clemson game B1 touched it not A1 regardless, the designated spot would remain as at the start of the play.

I couldn't find it in the case book, however I made some phone calls and that's what I came up with.

[Sharpshooternes]

So what does this mean then? "the throw-in pass shall touch another player (inbounds or out of bounds)

[APG]

Not that I agree with SoinZebra's interpretation but your wording is from the NFHS rule book, this is an NCAA question.

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Not that I agree with SoinZebra's interpretation but your wording is from the NFHS rule book, this is an NCAA question.

Oops, my bad.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by SoInZebra

Since the throw in never legally ended the ball would go back to the original designated spot to Team B.

Interesting though, in the Maryland-Clemson game B1 touched it not A1 regardless, the designated spot would remain as at the start of the play.

I couldn't find it in the case book, however I made some phone calls and that's what I came up with.

Can't be...and I'll tell you why....

Throwin restrictions are generally placed on the thrower and the thrower is who violates if they do not meet the requirements of the throwin. If the thrower violates, the defensive team would get the ball. What if the player who was OOB was the defensive team? Does that mean the thrower violated? No. Would you give them the ball? No. You'd give it back to team A. So, what is the violation? Touching the ball while OOB. Where was the violation? Where the ball was touched.

Look at Rule 7, Section 6, Art. 2....where it says the throwin ends when a player OOB touches the ball....sounds like it legally ends.

Next look at Rule 9, Section 5, Art 1 where it says...

"The thrower-in shall not: Fail to pass the ball directly into the playing court so that after it crosses the boundary line, it touches or is legally touched by an inbounds player or when a player, who is located on the playing court, touches and causes the ball to be out of bounds "

It seems to me that the NCAA doesn't define playing court the same way as the NFHS. If they did, this rule wouldn't make any sense since it would be impossible for a player to touch the ball and cause it to be OOB if they were only inbounds.

So, if a player, who touches the ball causes the ball to be OOB, the throwin both ends and was legally executed by the thrower.

The violation is a basic OOB violation....spot of the violation.

[SoInZebra]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Can't be...and I'll tell you why....

Throwin restrictions are generally placed on the thrower and the thrower is who violates if they do not meet the requirements of the throwin. If the thrower violates, the defensive team would get the ball. What if the player who was OOB was the defensive team? Does that mean the thrower violated? No. Would you give them the ball? No. You'd give it back to team A. So, what is the violation? Touching the ball while OOB. Where was the violation? Where the ball was touched.

Look at Rule 7, Section 6, Art. 2....where it says the throwin ends when a player OOB touches the ball....sounds like it legally ends.

Next look at Rule 9, Section 5, Art 1 where it says...

"The thrower-in shall not: Fail to pass the ball directly into the playing court so that after it crosses the boundary line, it touches or is legally touched by an inbounds player or when a player, who is located on the playing court, touches and causes the ball to be out of bounds "

It seems to me that the NCAA doesn't define playing court the same way as the NFHS. If they did, this rule wouldn't make any sense since it would be impossible for a player to touch the ball and cause it to be OOB if they were only inbounds.

So, if a player, who touches the ball causes the ball to be OOB, the throwin both ends and was legally executed by the thrower.

The violation is a basic OOB violation....spot of the violation.

Cameron- My original thought was to agree with you, however a variation of this play happened on 2/7 at the end of the Maryland/Clemson game. With 1.7 seconds left A1 had a designated spot throw in on the endline in his backcourt. A1 makes a long pass and the first person to touch the ball was B1 who was in the air but left the playing court with one foot on a boundary line in Team A's frontcourt. The crew gave the ball back to A at the original designated spot with no time off the clock. I texted the national coordinator and he agreed with the crew's administration:

Ball was never legally inbounded. Same as opponent or teammate catching throw in OOB.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by SoInZebra

Cameron- My original thought was to agree with you, however a variation of this play happened on 2/7 at the end of the Maryland/Clemson game. With 1.7 seconds left A1 had a designated spot throw in on the endline in his backcourt. A1 makes a long pass and the first person to touch the ball was B1 who was in the air but left the playing court with one foot on a boundary line in Team A's frontcourt. The crew gave the ball back to A at the original designated spot with no time off the clock. I texted the national coordinator and he agreed with the crew's administration:

Ball was never legally inbounded. Same as opponent or teammate catching throw in OOB.

This ruling is contradictory to A.R. 182:

After a goal by Team B, Team A has the ball for a throw-in from the end of the playing court at which the goal was made and attempts to pass the ball inbounds.

(1) B1 kicks the ball along the sideline; or

(2) B1 kicks the ball along the end line from where the throw-in was attempted.

RULING: (1) The kick is a floor violation and the ball shall be awarded to Team A at a designated spot nearest to where the violation occurred.
(Rule 9-6 and 7-5-1)

(2) Kicking the ball is a floor violation. Consequently, Team A shall retain the privilege to the throw-in from anywhere along the end line.

In (1) and (2), the throw-in was not legally completed since the kick is not a legal touch. As a result, neither the game clock nor the shot clock shall be started because of the violation.

(Rule 7-6-2, 7-5-6.a.4 and 9-6)

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Can't be...and I'll tell you why....

Throwin restrictions are generally placed on the thrower and the thrower is who violates if they do not meet the requirements of the throwin. If the thrower violates, the defensive team would get the ball. What if the player who was OOB was the defensive team? Does that mean the thrower violated? No. Would you give them the ball? No. You'd give it back to team A. So, what is the violation? Touching the ball while OOB. Where was the violation? Where the ball was touched.

Look at Rule 7, Section 6, Art. 2....where it says the throwin ends when a player OOB touches the ball....sounds like it legally ends.

Next look at Rule 9, Section 5, Art 1 where it says...

"The thrower-in shall not: Fail to pass the ball directly into the playing court so that after it crosses the boundary line, it touches or is legally touched by an inbounds player or when a player, who is located on the playing court, touches and causes the ball to be out of bounds "

It seems to me that the NCAA doesn't define playing court the same way as the NFHS. If they did, this rule wouldn't make any sense since it would be impossible for a player to touch the ball and cause it to be OOB if they were only inbounds.

So, if a player, who touches the ball causes the ball to be OOB, the throwin both ends and was legally executed by the thrower.

The violation is a basic OOB violation....spot of the violation.

Actually A.R. 182 states a floor-violation by an opponent does not cause the throw-in to end but ensuing throw-in is from a spot nearest to the violation.

Rule 9-15 addresses where throw-ins will occur when penalizing violations 9-3 through 9-14:

Art. 1. The ball shall become dead or remain dead when a violation occurs. The ball shall be awarded to a nearby opponent for a throw-in at a designated spot nearest to where the violation occurred.

The play from the OP falls under 9-4-1 and 9-5-2b so should be administered as stated in 9-15-1 and A. R. 182.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Actually A.R. 182 states a floor-violation by an opponent does not cause the throw-in to end but ensuing throw-in is from a spot nearest to the violation.

Rule 9-15 addresses where throw-ins will occur when penalizing violations 9-3 through 9-14:

Art. 1. The ball shall become dead or remain dead when a violation occurs. The ball shall be awarded to a nearby opponent for a throw-in at a designated spot nearest to where the violation occurred.

The play from the OP falls under 9-4-1 and 9-5-2b so should be administered as stated in 9-15-1 and A. R. 182.

Good additional detail.....thx for the backup....but 7-6-2 does clearly say the throwin ends when it touches an OOB player. Other types of floor violations (kicking, for example) do not cause the throwin to end...only OOB violations. The difference is that a kick is not a legal touch in any location where catching the ball is legal, but the location happens to be illegal.

[Scrapper1]

Here's the official word from Mr. Hyland:

Sorry for the late response, but your rules question presented several interesting issues, and I needed to research the issues to assure myself that there had not been any prior interpretations given by Ed Billick.

You have identified many of the rules which relate to your play situation, but none of them, individually or collectively, provides a definitive answer to your question. Accordingly, the following play situation and interpretation should clarify the issues in question and will be presented to the rules committee this May for final approval before being published in the Case Book:

Play Situation:
With 2 seconds remaining in the game and Team A behind by 2 points, Team A has the ball for a throw-in on the endline after Team B has scored. A-1, the thrower-in, passes the ball down court where it is first touched by B-1 who is standing with one or more feet out of bounds.

Ruling- Since the ball has never been touched by a player inbounds nor met any of the other conditions of Rule 4-70.4, the throw-in has never ended. Team B’s out of bounds violation results in a new throw-in by Team A from the original designated spot ( the endline ). No time shall come off the game or shot clock. Rule 4-70.4, 7-5.2 and 7-2.2

Please let me know if you have any further questions.

Art Hyland
Sec. Ed., NCAA Men's Basketball Rules Committee

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Can't be...and I'll tell you why....

Throwin restrictions are generally placed on the thrower and the thrower is who violates if they do not meet the requirements of the throwin. If the thrower violates, the defensive team would get the ball. What if the player who was OOB was the defensive team? Does that mean the thrower violated? No. Would you give them the ball? No. You'd give it back to team A. So, what is the violation? Touching the ball while OOB. Where was the violation? Where the ball was touched.

Look at Rule 7, Section 6, Art. 2....where it says the throwin ends when a player OOB touches the ball....sounds like it legally ends.

Next look at Rule 9, Section 5, Art 1 where it says...

"The thrower-in shall not: Fail to pass the ball directly into the playing court so that after it crosses the boundary line, it touches or is legally touched by an inbounds player or when a player, who is located on the playing court, touches and causes the ball to be out of bounds "

It seems to me that the NCAA doesn't define playing court the same way as the NFHS. If they did, this rule wouldn't make any sense since it would be impossible for a player to touch the ball and cause it to be OOB if they were only inbounds.

So, if a player, who touches the ball causes the ball to be OOB, the throwin both ends and was legally executed by the thrower.

The violation is a basic OOB violation....spot of the violation.

Posted I agree, realized old thread and can't delete my post? Hmmm

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Posted I agree, realized old thread and can't delete my post? Hmmm

Because the software automatically recognizes brilliance and refuses to allow it to go away?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SoInZebra

Since the throw in never legally ended the ball would go back to the original designated spot to Team B.

Interesting though, in the Maryland-Clemson game B1 touched it not A1 regardless, the designated spot would remain as at the start of the play.

I couldn't find it in the case book, however I made some phone calls and that's what I came up with.

You're wrong, and Camron is right. This rule is administered the same in FED and NCAA -- it's an OOB violation, not a TI violation.