Intentional or not?

[tref]

I know, I know, its two different codes!! But as I always say the higher the level of play, the better the books are written.

HS
An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul that may or may not be premeditated and is not based solely on the severity of the act. Intentional fouls include, but are not limited to:
a. Contact that neutralizes an opponent's obvious advantageous position.
b. Contact away from the ball with an opponent who is clearly not involved with a play.
c. Contact that is not a legitimate attempt to play the ball/player specifically designed to stop the clock or keep it from starting.
d. Excessive contact with an opponent while playing the ball.e. Contact with a thrower-in as in 9-2-10 Penalty 4.


NCAA
A flagrant 1 personal foul shall be a personal foul that is deemed excessive in nature and/or unnecessary, but not based solely on the severity of the act. Examples include, but are not limited to:
1. Causing excessive contact with an opponent while playing the ball;
2. Contact that is not a legitimate attempt to play the ball or player,
specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting;
3. Pushing or holding a player from behind to prevent a score;
4. Fouling a player clearly away from the ball who is not directly
involved with the play, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock
from starting; and
5. Contact with a player making a throw-in. (Women) This act shall also
serve as a team warning for reaching through the boundary. (See Rule
4-17-1.g.)
6. Illegal contact with an elbow that occurs above the shoulders of an
opponent when the elbows are not swung excessively per 4-36-7.a.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by tref

I know, I know, its two different codes!! But as I always say the higher the level of play, the better the books are written.

Even in the NCAA they don't call what was described as an intentional. It will be a common foul or nothing. INTs are shoves from behind, not nudges. Note the word "to prevent a score". It's got to be hard enough to be capable of preventing the score.

[Adam]

Actually, this particular play likely falls under NFHS c (above), not d.

[tref]

Fellas, I was just pointing out the differences in wording...

HS says excessive.
NCAA says excessive &/or unneccesary.

Whether they nudge or shove, its still a form of pushing. Airborne shooters dont get shoved or nudged from behind in my games. Just like an elbow hit or elbow tap... its still a foul.

Thats all

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tref

Fellas, I was just pointing out the differences in wording...

HS says excessive.
NCAA says excessive &/or unneccesary.

Whether they nudge or shove, its still a form of pushing. Airborne shooters dont get shoved or nudged from behind in my games. Just like an elbow hit or elbow tap... its still a foul.

Thats all

No it is not. All contact is not considered a foul by rule. So a nudge would not be the same as pushing someone. Heck I expect a nudge on many plays if the contact is legal. And all elbow contact is not a foul and the NCAA has made that very clear many times in their video. So it matters how and what the contact affected the players. Language or not, the concept is not different.

Peace

[tref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

No it is not. All contact is not considered a foul by rule. So a nudge would not be the same as pushing someone. Heck I expect a nudge on many plays if the contact is legal. And all elbow contact is not a foul and the NCAA has made that very clear many times in their video. So it matters how and what the contact affected the players. Language or not, the concept is not different.

Peace

We didnt see this play, would you agree that nudging an airborne shooter may not be excessive but it is unneccesary??

BTW:

Verb 1. nudge - to push against gently; "She nudged my elbow when she saw her friend enter the restaurant"
poke at, prod
jog - give a slight push to
elbow - shove one's elbow into another person's ribs
push, force - move with force, "He pushed the table into a corner"
2. nudge - push into action by pestering or annoying gently
push, bear on - press, drive, or impel (someone) to action or completion of an action; "He pushed her to finish her doctorate"

The word "push" is in there quite often

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by tref

We didnt see this play, would you agree that nudging an airborne shooter may not be excessive but it is unneccesary??

It may or may not be excessive. Even if it is unnecessary, it can still be incidental.

[Sharpshooternes]

[QUOTE=tref;818249]We didnt see this play, would you agree that nudging an airborne shooter may not be excessive but it is unneccesary??

Yes

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tref

We didnt see this play, would you agree that nudging an airborne shooter may not be excessive but it is unneccesary??

BTW:

Verb 1. nudge - to push against gently; "She nudged my elbow when she saw her friend enter the restaurant"
poke at, prod
jog - give a slight push to
elbow - shove one's elbow into another person's ribs
push, force - move with force, "He pushed the table into a corner"
2. nudge - push into action by pestering or annoying gently
push, bear on - press, drive, or impel (someone) to action or completion of an action; "He pushed her to finish her doctorate"

The word "push" is in there quite often

This is all wonderful, but we have words in the rulebook and the word "nudge" is not used. So if there is illegal contact, then it should be called. But all contact is not a foul and can be severe. That last wording is actually used in the rulebook. And since this is really a HTBT situation, this would be based on the judgment if contact was significant to displace the player from normal movement as a shooter.

Peace

[Sharpshooternes]

It is not as if I had my mind made up but it is what I called. Reading some of the answers I think I got a little clarification. In my mind at the time of the call, this was not a legitimate play on the ball or excessive contact, but reading C above in the HS rules it specifically talks about it being to stop the clock or prevent it from starting. Perhaps I was off base with this call. More displacement for sure would have earned the INT but I probably should have given an +1 only.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

I probably should have given an +1 only.

cringe

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

cringe

you don't agree?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

you don't agree?

Just with the term "and one." Nothing wrong with it per se, just coach speak that makes me tune out a coach faster than "3 seconds" or "over the back."

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by tref

Fellas, I was just pointing out the differences in wording...

HS says excessive.
NCAA says excessive &/or unneccesary.

Whether they nudge or shove, its still a form of pushing. Airborne shooters dont get shoved or nudged from behind in my games. Just like an elbow hit or elbow tap... its still a foul.

Thats all

I guess you call ALL contact as an intentional foul because all of it is unnecessary.

[tref]

If I did that, I'm sure I'd be back to working a plethora of kiddie games on Saturday mornings instead of Saturday night 7pm

IMO the defender running down an airborne shooter who's laying the ball up doesn't get to play last tag just because he got beat. Sometimes you just gotta let it go...

BTW I've never had to call more than one INT for this in a single game, if you know what I mean.