Intentional?

[ronny mulkey]

Do the rules allow an intentional foul for excessive contact to be called on a player holding or dribbling the ball? For example, the dribbler lowers the shoulder and runs completely over a LGP defender. A lot of contact occurs?

While on the subject, how about the illegal hard screen away from the ball where the screener extends the arms and "decleats' the person being screened?

If yes on either, what is the wording in the definition that allows this to be intentional?

[Jurassic Referee]

See case book play 4.19.6SitB.

[ronny mulkey]

JR,

Kinda aware of this case play, but it doesn't really address the excessive part of my question. A defender's foul can be ruled intentional because of excessive contact while "playing the ball". So, you judge severity in that situation. Do the rulesmakers want you to judge severity on plays where "playing the ball" is not part of the equation?

Specifically, on my original two plays, can you call an intentional for excessive contact?

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by ronny mulkey

Do the rules allow an intentional foul for excessive contact to be called on a player holding or dribbling the ball? For example, the dribbler lowers the shoulder and runs completely over a LGP defender. A lot of contact occurs?

While on the subject, how about the illegal hard screen away from the ball where the screener extends the arms and "decleats' the person being screened?

If yes on either, what is the wording in the definition that allows this to be intentional?

Ronny,
As JR pointed out, you have the exact wording in this Case Play:
4.19.3 SITUATION B: A1 drives to the basket with B1 in pursuit. As A1 begins
the act of shooting, B1 gets a hand on the ball from behind and the subsequent contact takes A1 forcefully to the floor and out of bounds. RULING: An intentional foul shall be charged when the contact is judged to be excessive, even though the opponent is playing the ball. (4-11)

In your two cases, if, in your opinion, the players committed a foul AND you viewed the contact to be excessive, you can charge an intentional foul. You can replace "even though the opponent is playing the ball" with "even though the opponent (offender) is dribbling the ball" or "even though the opponent (offender) is trying to set a screen." The key operative phrase here is "judged to be excessive" even if the play did not otherwise rise to the level of being considered to be intentional.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by cmhcoachnref

ronny,
as jr pointed out, you have the exact wording in this case play:
4.19.3 situation b: A1 drives to the basket with b1 in pursuit. As a1 begins
the act of shooting, b1 gets a hand on the ball from behind and the subsequent contact takes a1 forcefully to the floor and out of bounds. Ruling: an intentional foul shall be charged when the contact is judged to be excessive, even though the opponent is playing the ball. (4-11)

in your two cases, if, in your opinion, the players committed a foul and you viewed the contact to be excessive, you can charge an intentional foul. You can replace "even though the opponent is playing the ball" with "even though the opponent (offender) is dribbling the ball" or "even though the opponent (offender) is trying to set a screen." the key operative phrase here is "judged to be excessive" even if the play did not otherwise rise to the level of being considered to be intentional.

+1

[ronny mulkey]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

Ronny,
As JR pointed out, you have the exact wording in this Case Play:
4.19.3 SITUATION B: A1 drives to the basket with B1 in pursuit. As A1 begins
the act of shooting, B1 gets a hand on the ball from behind and the subsequent contact takes A1 forcefully to the floor and out of bounds. RULING: An intentional foul shall be charged when the contact is judged to be excessive, even though the opponent is playing the ball. (4-11)

In your two cases, if, in your opinion, the players committed a foul AND you viewed the contact to be excessive, you can charge an intentional foul. You can replace "even though the opponent is playing the ball" with "even though the opponent (offender) is dribbling the ball" or "even though the opponent (offender) is trying to set a screen." The key operative phrase here is "judged to be excessive" even if the play did not otherwise rise to the level of being considered to be intentional.

Coach,

Are you sure that you can just substitute those phrases in place of "while playing the ball"? Or, do you think that this specific play is the only one where the rulesmakers wanted us to rule excessive contact?

I like your logic. However, I've never seen an intentional foul called on a hard player control foul?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by ronny mulkey

Coach,

Are you sure that you can just substitute those phrases in place of "while playing the ball"? Or, do you think that this specific play is the only one where the rulesmakers wanted us to rule excessive contact?

I like your logic. However, I've never seen an intentional foul called on a hard player control foul?

I saw one once I would have called. Player going hard to the basket, led with his elbow, flattened the defender.

Partner called a block.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ronny mulkey

Coach,

Are you sure that you can just substitute those phrases in place of "while playing the ball"? Or, do you think that this specific play is the only one where the rulesmakers wanted us to rule excessive contact?

I like your logic. However, I've never seen an intentional foul called on a hard player control foul?

The case play provides the logic, it's up to us to apply it to similar but slightly different plays. You don't see it often because it's not common for a player with the ball to get stupid like that. That, and it's not uncommon for a player with the ball to flatten a defender in the natural course of events. That's not the case in reverse.

You don't see it called often on screens, either, but it's also possible.

[Kelvin green]

The rules for foul for offensive players are no different than defensive players

-a defensive player commits a common foul an offensive player commits a player control or team control foul

- either team commits an excessive contact foul, can be charged with intentional

-either team commits act determined as flagrant either team can be called for it

I would think if you are looking at plays elbow plays rare the ones where you have flexibility in determining the appropriate penalty

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by ronny mulkey

Do the rules allow an intentional foul for excessive contact to be called on a player holding or dribbling the ball? For example, the dribbler lowers the shoulder and runs completely over a LGP defender. A lot of contact occurs?

While on the subject, how about the illegal hard screen away from the ball where the screener extends the arms and "decleats' the person being screened?

If yes on either, what is the wording in the definition that allows this to be intentional?

I saw a play under NCAA rules where player A1 had secured a loose ball and player B1 was pressuring him.

A1 swings a vicious elbow and knocks B1 to the floor.

Officials called an intentional foul on A1.

q.e.d.

[just another ref]

Only flagrant personal I ever called in a varsity game was on a player with the ball.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ronny mulkey

JR,

Kinda aware of this case play, but it doesn't really address the excessive part of my question. A defender's foul can be ruled intentional because of excessive contact while "playing the ball". So, you judge severity in that situation. Do the rulesmakers want you to judge severity on plays where "playing the ball" is not part of the equation?

Specifically, on my original two plays, can you call an intentional for excessive contact?

Mulk, with your experience I know that you must have had the play sometime where a player with the ball swings an elbow and gets an opponent in the head/face. Obviously that can be judged either an intentional or flagrant personal foul.

Don't get hung up on rule book verbiage and over-think some of these plays.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I saw one once I would have called. Player going hard to the basket, led with his elbow, flattened the defender.

Partner called a block.

I could see a legitimate double personal foul here, if the defender really did block. In the play I'm envisioning we'd have a block on the defender and an intentional (personal) foul for excessive contact by the dribbler.

If we called that, how do we proceed? Give it back to A, which was the POI? Doesn't seem quite fair, if A committed the intentional foul...

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ronny mulkey

Coach,

Are you sure that you can just substitute those phrases in place of "while playing the ball"? Or, do you think that this specific play is the only one where the rulesmakers wanted us to rule excessive contact?

Read it again Ronny. It's NOT "An intentional foul shall be charged when the contact is judged to be excessive WHILE PLAYING THE BALL." It's, "An intentional foul shall be charged when the contact is judged to be excessive, even though the opponent is playing the ball."

In other words, excessive contact is alway intentional and "playing the ball" is not an excuse (despite what the coaches will plead)

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I could see a legitimate double personal foul here, if the defender really did block. In the play I'm envisioning we'd have a block on the defender and an intentional (personal) foul for excessive contact by the dribbler.

If we called that, how do we proceed? Give it back to A, which was the POI? Doesn't seem quite fair, if A committed the intentional foul...

I don't understand the question.