Intentional

[Rufus]

I didn't want to hijack Representing's thread, but the responses to it got me thinking about intentional fouls and whether or not I would have called one on the play posted. For reference here's the contact (for purposes of my question I'm disregarding the T before contact and am looking to discuss the contact afterward):

YouTube - Technical & Unsportsmanlike Foul

To save everyone looking it up, here is the NFHS definition for Intentional Foul:

An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul which neutralizes an opponent's obvious advantageous position. Contact away from the ball or when not making a legitimate attempt to play the ball or a player, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting, shall be intentional. Intentional fouls may or may not be premeditated and are not based on solely on the severity of the act. A foul also shall be ruled intentional if while playing the ball a player causes excessive contact with an opponent.

My first reaction looking at the clip (again, only interested here in the contact foul, not the T the proceeded it) was that it was a hard foul and we're obviously shooting free throws in some number depending on if the ball went in. Having read responses to the previous post, though, there seems to be consensus that and intentional foul was committed.

My question is this - are you relying on the "causes excessive contact" above to call that foul intentional? How does that jibe with "are not based solely on the severity of the act?" The foul in the clip is obviously a hard foul, but there was apparently an attempt to make a play on the ball (however inept it was in execution). I guess what I'm looking for is how do you determine if a foul is intentional in that type of situation?

[JRutledge]

I am not calling that intentional, I am calling that flagrant. Not only was the action by the defender trying to foul him, he was trying to take him out. Intentional foul has nothing to do with intent necessarily.

Peace

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Rufus

I didn't want to hijack Representing's thread, but the responses to it got me thinking about intentional fouls and whether or not I would have called one on the play posted. For reference here's the contact (for purposes of my question I'm disregarding the T before contact and am looking to discuss the contact afterward):

YouTube - Technical & Unsportsmanlike Foul

To save everyone looking it up, here is the NFHS definition for Intentional Foul:

An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul which neutralizes an opponent's obvious advantageous position. Contact away from the ball or when not making a legitimate attempt to play the ball or a player, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting, shall be intentional. Intentional fouls may or may not be premeditated and are not based on solely on the severity of the act. A foul also shall be ruled intentional if while playing the ball a player causes excessive contact with an opponent.

My first reaction looking at the clip (again, only interested here in the contact foul, not the T the proceeded it) was that it was a hard foul and we're obviously shooting free throws in some number depending on if the ball went in. Having read responses to the previous post, though, there seems to be consensus that and intentional foul was committed.

My question is this - are you relying on the "causes excessive contact" above to call that foul intentional? How does that jibe with "are not based solely on the severity of the act?" The foul in the clip is obviously a hard foul, but there was apparently an attempt to make a play on the ball (however inept it was in execution). I guess what I'm looking for is how do you determine if a foul is intentional in that type of situation?

Aaah........I think I'm going with excessive contact

[Adam]

I'm not sure I would go with Flagrant, but I wouldn't lose sleep over it if my partner did it. If I was on the floor where that official is standing, I would have a better view of the defender and any "follow through" or "wind up."

All that said, intentionals can be called for either "intent" or "excessive contact." It jibes easily, since the rule says they "are not based solely on the severity of the act." That's making the point that you can call an intentional foul even if the contact isn't severe; the final sentence gives you license to call it on a play like the OP video. This way, when a player makes an attempt to go for the ball but knocks the player into the bleachers, you can call an intentional foul.

[jallen]

In FIBA, an unsporting foul occurs when you disregard the spirit of the game, here the defender clearly had no intentions of playing the ball, he ran the shooter, clear and simple. In FIBA this is not called intentional but unsportwmqn like. I had a very similar situation just last night, called the US followed by the T. I called yet another US during the same game when player who was on a clear break was yelled at by the defender during the shot, US and must be called. A warning may be given if the ball scored but not if it missed
the penalty here is stiff, 2 for the T, 2 for the US and then white gets the ball, possible 7 pt play ( if a 3 is made) or 8 if fouled while making a 3

[representing]

Going back to the play, it is clear to me this is a flagrant foul. I'm sure the referee on the floor would have caught this as he was right there, but in the video I had to watch this a few times.

Look at the defensive player going into the shooter. It doesn't look like he went up to block the ball, albeit the hand going up to look like he's making a legit attempt to block. It looks like he used excessive force to go into the torso of the player intentionally to injury or take out the player, and then watch where his arm went. It went down towards the head and shoulder, obviously looking like he wanted to hit the shooter with his arm. I'm bringing this video up with our chapter's rule's interpreter and ask him what he thinks.

Yes, I know there are no replays in high school sports, and that you have to call it as you see it. First time watching this video before making it a thread on here, I immediately thought "wow, that was pretty flagrant" and if i were the ref, I would have ejected that player.

My theory is that something must have happened on the other end of the court before it came to this part, because of the yelling coach, the almost immediate Technical given to that coach and then this shooting foul occurring. But then again, we are only seeing a few seconds of that whole game so I can't say for sure that this is what happened up to this point.

[Ref_in_Alberta]

Originally Posted by jallen

In FIBA, an unsporting foul occurs when you disregard the spirit of the game, here the defender clearly had no intentions of playing the ball, he ran the shooter, clear and simple. In FIBA this is not called intentional but unsportwmqn like. I had a very similar situation just last night, called the US followed by the T. I called yet another US during the same game when player who was on a clear break was yelled at by the defender during the shot, US and must be called. A warning may be given if the ball scored but not if it missed
the penalty here is stiff, 2 for the T, 2 for the US and then white gets the ball, possible 7 pt play ( if a 3 is made) or 8 if fouled while making a 3

jallen,

You may want to check the FIBA rule book (Rule 6 - Art 36.1.4 bullet 3, see below) regarding Unsportmanlike Fouls and the clear path foul. You cannot call an Unsportmanlike Foul when contact does not occur. Yelling at a player could be a Technical Foul for an unsportmanlike act, but IMHO an Unsportsmanlike Foul is the not correct call in your play hilighted in red.

FIBA Rule 6 - Art 36.1.4 bullet 3
If a defensive player causes contact with an opponent from behind or laterally in an attempt to stop a fast break and there is no opponent between the offensive player and the opponents’ basket, then the contact shall be judged to be unsportsmanlike.

In the OP...

Definately Unsportmanlike at the very least, more than likely should be a Disqualifying Foul (FIBA = same as Flagrant). I see no issue with the Technical Foul either as that was the 1st whistle.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm not sure I would go with Flagrant, but I wouldn't lose sleep over it if my partner did it. If I was on the floor where that official is standing, I would have a better view of the defender and any "follow through" or "wind up."

Agree. In addition, I think that context is relevant: if this foul is retaliatory or otherwise part of a series of escalating fouls, it might be flagrant. I'm not just going to keep calling intentional fouls for a series of excessive contacts.

[Adam]

I had a game a couple years ago where one player committed a pretty bad intentional foul in the 2nd quarter. Third quarter, does it again, this time slightly harder (flat out pushing a breakaway shooter). My partner went straight to the flagrant on it. Whether it would have been flagrant without the previous foul is hard to judge in hind sight.

[TimTaylor]

I called an intentional foul in a varsity game last night, my partner and I called one each in a varsity game Tuesday, and I called one in a JV game last week. All were for excessive contact, and the one in the JV game was really close to flagrant. What's really wierd is that these were all in girls games....haven't had anything close in my boy's games so far.....

[Welpe]

I've had one intentional foul call so far in my short basketball career.

It was during a relatively well played 8th grade boys game near the end of the third quarter. A visiting team player gets a hold of the ball out of a scrum in the home team's backcourt and has a fast break to an uncontested layup. As he goes up for his lay up, a defensive player comes leaping in from behind and tries to take a weak swipe at the ball while going completely through the offensive player. It was a pretty easy call for me actually. The home team coach nearly had a coronary event when I reported the foul as if this was somehow a surprise to him.

[jallen]

techs can only be not contact fouls and USP must involved contact. by the way I did score 94 on the very tricky FIBA exam this year, so I usually get the rules right

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Welpe

...... home team coach nearly had a coronary event when I reported the foul as if this was somehow a surprise to him.

No big surprise there.

In the game last night, situation occurred on a long rebound off a 3 pt attempt by V1. V3 chases the rebound, followed by H3 maybe 2 steps behind her. V3 gets possession of the ball - H3 makes no attempt to avoid contact and crashes full tilt into V3, hooking an arm around her torso and taking her to the floor in the process. When I reported the intentional, coach H nearly lost it. He collected himself and asked "how can you call that intentional?" - my reply was "excessive contact". The dumbfounded look on his face told me he clearly didn't know the rule.......

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by jallen

techs can only be not contact fouls and USP must involved contact. by the way I did score 94 on the very tricky FIBA exam this year, so I usually get the rules right

A. most of us do not use FIBA
B. in NFHS what you're saying is false of technical fouls (4-19-5).
C. I don't know what USP means other than United States Pharmacopeia.

[Ref_in_Alberta]

I had an Unsportmanlike foul last night, in a VG tournament game (FIBA rules).

Partner calls a "common" foul on Blue 14. White 13 (the player who was fouled) turns and pushes Blue 14 during the ensueing dead ball. So I call the unsportsmanlike foul. (I belive in NF/NCAA this would be an Intentional Technical).

Strange thing is, there was not a peep from the White team coach whom I've had issues with in the past. I didn't hear anything else from him for the rest of the game either.