Not facing the opponent

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

... I still don't see anything which says that a player without LGP who leaves his feet could not then still draw a charge if the offensive player initiates the contact.

I didn't say that either. I said they don't have the right to the space above them if they've not earned it by getting proper position (i.e., LGP).

If the contact is in the torso, the jump doesn't change the point of contact. However, if they jump and make contact with a shooter's arms above them, they will only be able to do so legally if they have obtained LGP.

But, if they had LGP, they can legally jump up such that it results in contact in the space above them and not be guilty of a foul.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

So, what do we do about 4-45-3: "The hands and arms of the defender may be raised within his/her vertical plane while on the floor or in the air."?

This statement, and others, intimate, and indeed indicate, that the vertical plane is considered in regards to contact between opponents, whether the opponents are grounded or airborne.

You can't leave out the requirements that must be met to have the right to 4-45-3.

Cited again....


ART. 1. Legal guarding position must be obtained initially and movement thereafter must be legal.
ART. 2 . . . From this position, the defender may rise or jump vertically and occupy the space within his/her vertical plane.
ART. 3 . . . The hands and arms of the defender may be raised within his/her vertical plane while on the floor or in the air.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I didn't say that either. I said they don't have the right to the space above them if they've not earned it by getting proper position (i.e., LGP).

If the contact is in the torso, the jump doesn't change the point of contact. However, if they jump and make contact with a shooter's arms above them, they will only be able to do so legally if they have obtained LGP.

The player with the ball is to be given no more protection or consideration than the defender........

If the defender sticks his arms out over the shooter, and the shooter goes straight up, creating contact, foul on the defense, whether he previously had LGP or not. So, in the unlikely event that the shooter goes up, leans out over the defender, then the defender goes straight up, I don't see how this can also be a foul on the defender.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If the defender sticks his arms out over the shooter, and the shooter goes straight up, creating contact, foul on the defense, whether he previously had LGP or not. So, in the unlikely event that the shooter goes up, leans out over the defender, then the defender goes straight up, I don't see how this can also be a foul on the defender.

The verticality rule clearly says the defender can only do that if they have LGP. If they don't have LGP, they don't have the right to that space. If they are extending their arms into a space they do not have a right to (or jump into that same space) and cause contact sufficient for a foul, they have fouled.

The player with the ball isn't given any more protection or consideration. They both have a way to earn the right to the space above them. If they earn it, they get it. If not and there is contact, the one who causes the contact is at fault, not necessarily the one who is outside their vertical space.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The player with the ball isn't given any more protection or consideration. They both have a way to earn the right to the space above them.

How did the player with the ball earn the space above him?

If they earn it, they get it. If not and there is contact, the one who causes the contact is at fault, not necessarily the one who is outside their vertical space.

If you can lean over the other guy and still draw a foul, that's quite a consideration.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

How did the player with the ball earn the space above him?

By occupying it first.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

By occupying it first.

You mean, just like the defender did?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

You mean, just like the defender did?

If he gets there first, sure, but if the shooter is there first, no.

[JRutledge]

Cameron,

I get where you are coming from, but in order to call the game that way, I would need a more official interpretation than what we talk about here. All other indication they are not asking for this kind of restrictions on a vertical player.

Peace

[MiamiWadeCounty]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

But, just for the sake of clarity, does that position apply to an airborne player?

This is what FIBA rules say:

"During the game, each player has the right to occupy any position (cylinder) on the playing court not already occupied by an opponent.

This principle protects the space on the floor which he occupies and the space above him when he jumps vertically within that space."

And this what NBA rules say:

"A player is entitled to a vertical position even to the extent of holding his arms above his shoulders, as in post play or when double-teaming in pressing tactics."

FIBA's verticality rules clearly apply to an airborne player.

NBA's verticality rules kind of suggest that it apply to an airborne player, but who knows sure?

One thing for sure is that in the NBA and FIBA a defender doesn't need LGP to be in a vertical position.

[MiamiWadeCounty]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

1) This has generally been a HS discussion, and the RA is NCAA.

2) It's clear that the rule says something to the effect that "a player is entitled to his/her spot on the floor provided s/he gets there legally first." Standing in the RA is NOT getting there "legally."

3) Your'e wrong about his logic.

NCAA rules state that a secondary defender shall not established ILGP in the RA. But a lot of you say that a defender doesn't need LGP to draw a charge. So if a secondary defender doesn't need LGP to draw a charge, and the RA ONLY talks about ILGP, then why can't a secondary defender stand in the RA, facing the crowd, and getting plow from behind and still draw a charge?