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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 25, 2012, 09:41am
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Double or False Double?

The following is copied from my state's fan board....

Quote:
A) Player 1 on Team A commits an Intentional Foul at half court which was the teams 6th team foul.

B) Player 2 on Team B then commits a dead ball foul immediately preceding the whistle being blown for foul (A). The official issues a Single Personal Foul and a Technical Foul to Player 2 for a dead ball foul.

Now this is where I am confused, the official said that there would be no foul shot taken for either infraction as the offset each other.
It sounds like the official went with a double foul. I'm not sure how you can have a dead ball foul preceding a whistle, but just the same, if the fouls were close enough together in time, can an intentional and a common foul result in a double, or should this be a false double?
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Old Wed Jan 25, 2012, 09:59am
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Was B-Player 2's foul committed against A-Player 1 at approximately the same time? Then maybe I can see a double foul.

But since it was reported as a PF (Intentional I assume) on A Player 1 and a TF on B Player 2 then we have a false double and penalize in order. So after Team B shoots followed by Team A shooting we have Team A with a division line throw-in.
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Last edited by Raymond; Wed Jan 25, 2012 at 10:01am.
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Old Wed Jan 25, 2012, 10:09am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
The following is copied from my state's fan board....



It sounds like the official went with a double foul. I'm not sure how you can have a dead ball foul preceding a whistle, but just the same, if the fouls were close enough together in time, can an intentional and a common foul result in a double, or should this be a false double?
BNR got it.

And what causes the ball to be dead?
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Old Wed Jan 25, 2012, 10:19am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
Was B-Player 2's foul committed against A-Player 1 at approximately the same time? Then maybe I can see a double foul.
IF A1 fouls B1 and B1 then fouls A1 before I can get the whistle blown, I'm likely to see this as a double personal foul.
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Old Wed Jan 25, 2012, 10:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
And what causes the ball to be dead?
"Preceded" can't be right. He must have meant "following."

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
IF A1 fouls B1 and B1 then fouls A1 before I can get the whistle blown, I'm likely to see this as a double personal foul.
Right, but what if only one of the fouls was intentional?
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Old Wed Jan 25, 2012, 10:35am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
"Preceded" can't be right. He must have meant "following."
Why? Again, when there's a common foul, when does the ball become dead?
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Old Wed Jan 25, 2012, 10:47am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
"Preceded" can't be right. He must have meant "following."
The action was "A foul" "B foul" "Whistle."

B's foul preceeded the whistle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey
Right, but what if only one of the fouls was intentional?
What if it is? What does 4-fouls-double fouls say about it?
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Old Wed Jan 25, 2012, 11:03am
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The foul, of course, is what makes the ball dead in this scenario. There is a period between the foul and the whistle being sounded where the ball is dead but only the calling official is aware of it. However, any foul during this period is technically a foul during a dead ball and should be dealt with as such.

However, given the definition of a personal double foul is "two opponents commit[ting] personal fouls against each other at approximately the same time," it would be impossible to have a double foul unless the fouls were committed at exactly the same time as the second would always be during a dead ball and thus not a personal foul. Therefore, I believe the expectation is that a situation such as the OP, where the second foul occurs before the whistle to announce the first foul, should be considered with the confines of "approximately the same time" and treated as a double foul.

So, although it seems the official incorrectly called the second foul a technical instead of a personal foul, the end result, double foul enforcement, appears to be correct (excepting the technical foul hanging on the second fouler).
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Old Wed Jan 25, 2012, 11:07am
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Even if it's not a true double foul, but is a simultaneous foul (because the Team B player did not foul A1, for example), it's treated the same as a double foul.

In high school, that means no free throws, go to POI. In NCAA, it's different.
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Old Wed Jan 25, 2012, 11:13am
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The OP author has indeed clarified that the second foul was after the whistle, hence a dead ball foul.

intentional + tweet + technical = false double foul, yes?
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Old Wed Jan 25, 2012, 11:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
intentional + tweet + technical = false double foul, yes?
Yes. Enforce both fouls in the order in which they occurred. No POI.
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Old Wed Jan 25, 2012, 12:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
The OP author has indeed clarified that the second foul was after the whistle, hence a dead ball foul.

intentional + tweet + technical = false double foul, yes?
Yes, presuming the contact was enough to warrant the technical.
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Old Thu Jan 26, 2012, 03:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
Yes. Enforce both fouls in the order in which they occurred. No POI.
So who gets the ball? Whoever gets the last two freethrows?
And isn't any foul during a dead ball either intentional or flagrant?
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Old Thu Jan 26, 2012, 03:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes View Post
So who gets the ball? Whoever gets the last two freethrows?
And isn't any foul during a dead ball either intentional or flagrant?
If the last foul is shots plus the ball then the offended team gets the ball. Yes.
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Old Thu Jan 26, 2012, 03:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes View Post
And isn't any foul during a dead ball either intentional or flagrant?
No,

(but, a large percentage are)
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