Dunk in pregame

[constable]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Yoda??

Nice...

Go read 4-34 and the definitions there.

I'm well aware of what the rule says. A JV player is not affiliated with the V team. If there name isn't on the sheet, if they aren't on the bench then they aren't affiliated.

Again- what if it was a fan dressed in warm ups that dunked?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by constable

I'm well aware of what the rule says. A JV player is not affiliated with the V team. If there name isn't on the sheet, if they aren't on the bench then they aren't affiliated.

Again- what if it was a fan dressed in warm ups that dunked?

I believe this has been stated numerous times in the thread. If a person, any person, is dressed like the team, and warming up with the team, some of us consider that an affiliation.

Coach: "I didn't even know he was out there!"

Official: "It is your business to know who is out there."

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by constable

I'm well aware of what the rule says. A JV player is not affiliated with the V team. If there name isn't on the sheet, if they aren't on the bench then they aren't affiliated.

Again- what if it was a fan dressed in warm ups that dunked?

Obviously you aren't familiar with 4-34, or you wouldn't be putting anything in your reply about their name being on a sheet...4-34 says nothing about a name having to be on a sheet.

What it does say is: ART. 2 . . . Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statistician(s). During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel for the purpose of penalizing unsporting behavior.

So...since this OP was during an intermission, and the kid was dressed as a player, and he dunked - which is unsporting behavior - he is penalized as bench personnel. It's right there...all you have to do is read it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statistician(s). During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel for the purpose of penalizing unsporting behavior.

The head coach is responsible for his/her own conduct and behavior, as well as substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench personnel, including the head coach, shall not: Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts: Grasping either basket except to prevent injury; dunking or stuffing, or attempting to dunk or stuff a dead ball.

Good citation from rockyroad. Bench personnel are "part of, or affiliated with a team". The crux of this thread is, what does it mean to be "part of, or affiliated with a team" ? Note that is says "a" team, singular, not "teams", plural. Many of us, including me, believe that there are six teams when we walk into a site, freshman, junior varsity, and varsity, home, and visitors. Others, like rockyroad, believe that there are only two teams there, home and visitors. We can debate this until the cows come home to roost, but unless we get an interpretation from the NFHS, or from our various state interscholastic sports governing bodies, then we're going to have to agree to disagree.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Billy, Camron, and a few others are staying on point, the Original Play involves a player wearing a Varsity uniform participating in the Jr. Varsity warmups. We are NOT discussing fans being on the court and dunking the ball. Fans are NOT Bench Personnel; if a fan comes onto the court and dunks the ball, get game management to take care of business; this is not a TF.

I would suggest that my post (#83 on Page #6 of this thread) explains best how to handle the OP being discussed.

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Obviously you aren't familiar with 4-34, or you wouldn't be putting anything in your reply about their name being on a sheet...4-34 says nothing about a name having to be on a sheet.

What it does say is: ART. 2 . . . Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statistician(s). During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel for the purpose of penalizing unsporting behavior.

So...since this OP was during an intermission, and the kid was dressed as a player, and he dunked - which is unsporting behavior - he is penalized as bench personnel. It's right there...all you have to do is read it.

A kid on the Varsity team is no more affiliated with the JV team than a parent sitting in the stands wearing the school colors.
Sorry, but you are totally wrong to penalize the team competing for an action done by someone not part of the team. You don't get to decide if he is part of the team, the team/school decides if he is part of the team.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

A kid on the Varsity team is no more affiliated with the JV team than a parent sitting in the stands wearing the school colors.
Sorry, but you are totally wrong to penalize the team competing for an action done by someone not part of the team. You don't get to decide if he is part of the team, the team/school decides if he is part of the team.

The team/coach made the choice when they permitted him/her to participate in warm-ups. Call him/her an assistant coach, statistician, or trainer if you must, but if they're on the floor participating with the team, the team assumes responsibility for his/her actions.

I doubt they'd allow a parent to participate...but if they did, that parent just became part of the coaching staff/bench personnel for as long as they're on the playing court or bench.

Plus, I've yet to ever see a formal list of people that are team members or bench personnel until the 10-minute mark and, even then, it is not required that they list everyone, only those that may play....certainly not any one of the coaching staff or other personnel.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

A kid on the Varsity team is no more affiliated with the JV team than a parent sitting in the stands wearing the school colors.
Sorry, but you are totally wrong to penalize the team competing for an action done by someone not part of the team. You don't get to decide if he is part of the team, the team/school decides if he is part of the team.

Like Camron said, I don't decide anything. And - again - if you read 4-34, it says quite clearly "including, but not limited to..." So this is covered by the rule. The Coach allowed them out there, they are affiliated with the team, they became bench personnel.

It strikes me as quite odd that someone who ranted about ejecting a parent who comes on the floor because their son/daughter is lying there injured will NOT call a T in a situation like this.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Like Camron said, I don't decide anything. And - again - if you read 4-34, it says quite clearly "including, but not limited to..." So this is covered by the rule. The Coach allowed them out there, they are affiliated with the team, they became bench personnel.

It strikes me as quite odd that someone who ranted about ejecting a parent who comes on the floor because their son/daughter is lying there injured will NOT call a T in a situation like this.

I keep wondering if he would ignore other unsporting behavior from the interloper.

[Nevadaref]

My stance has been consistent--removal of the person from the floor.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

My stance has been consistent--removal of the person from the floor.

If someone in authority, athletic director, site director, coach, table crew, tells me that the dunker is not an actual team member, or bench personnel, then I agree. And if that authority figure lies to me, then it's on their conscience. I'm not going to challenge their moral, and ethical, values there on the court.

[Adam]

From our state organization (CHSAA):

Varsity Dunking in Junior Varsity Halftimes
Please remind your varsity teams that it is a rules violation for varsity players to dunk during halftime warm-ups and/or in the shoot around of junior varsity games. Officials have noted there is an increase over previous years of limited oversight by coaches and/or game administration. The rule is in place for two important reasons: 1) the safety of the participants, and 2) the welfare of the basket and rim. Players can get hurt and baskets can become unplayable, so please reinforce this with coaches and players alike.

Somewhat vague, but definitely justification for calling the T in the situation we're discussing here.

[Adam]

To answer the question, no, the definition of a dunk does not mention the rim.

[mi_ball]

Thanks. I don't want to give the impression that I think they should dunk in warm ups or even push the envelope. This happened last year when he was a freshman and I was curious more than anything. I realize that as officials you deal with over zealous parents on a regular basis but I would hope you are not so jaded that it is your first thought when someone asks a simple question.

I know that you know there are a lot of good kids out there. My son's varsity team had the highest grade point average in the state last year and I am a lot more proud of that than I am my son's ability (and height) that allows him to dunk a basketball.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

A kid on the Varsity team is no more affiliated with the JV team than a parent sitting in the stands wearing the school colors.
Sorry, but you are totally wrong to penalize the team competing for an action done by someone not part of the team. You don't get to decide if he is part of the team, the team/school decides if he is part of the team.

So who is responsible for the people who participate in warm-ups with the team?

Hear a lot of what we can't or shouldn't do.