Dunk in pregame

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Like Camron said, I don't decide anything. And - again - if you read 4-34, it says quite clearly "including, but not limited to..." So this is covered by the rule. The Coach allowed them out there, they are affiliated with the team, they became bench personnel.

It strikes me as quite odd that someone who ranted about ejecting a parent who comes on the floor because their son/daughter is lying there injured will NOT call a T in a situation like this.

I keep wondering if he would ignore other unsporting behavior from the interloper.

[Nevadaref]

My stance has been consistent--removal of the person from the floor.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

My stance has been consistent--removal of the person from the floor.

If someone in authority, athletic director, site director, coach, table crew, tells me that the dunker is not an actual team member, or bench personnel, then I agree. And if that authority figure lies to me, then it's on their conscience. I'm not going to challenge their moral, and ethical, values there on the court.

[Adam]

From our state organization (CHSAA):

Varsity Dunking in Junior Varsity Halftimes
Please remind your varsity teams that it is a rules violation for varsity players to dunk during halftime warm-ups and/or in the shoot around of junior varsity games. Officials have noted there is an increase over previous years of limited oversight by coaches and/or game administration. The rule is in place for two important reasons: 1) the safety of the participants, and 2) the welfare of the basket and rim. Players can get hurt and baskets can become unplayable, so please reinforce this with coaches and players alike.

Somewhat vague, but definitely justification for calling the T in the situation we're discussing here.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If someone in authority, athletic director, site director, coach, table crew, tells me that the dunker is not an actual team member, or bench personnel, then I agree. And if that authority figure lies to me, then it's on their conscience. I'm not going to challenge their moral, and ethical, values there on the court.

The overwhelming point here is what they tell you doesn't matter. Either his presence and his actions prove he is affiliated with the team, or they don't.

Coaches have no conscience in what they tell you.

"He didn't foul!" "He didn't travel!" etc.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

From our state organization (CHSAA):

Varsity Dunking in Junior Varsity Halftimes

Please remind your varsity teams that it is a rules violation for varsity players to dunk during halftime warm-ups and/or in the shoot around of junior varsity games. Officials have noted there is an increase over previous years of limited oversight by coaches and/or game administration. The rule is in place for two important reasons: 1) the safety of the participants, and 2) the welfare of the basket and rim. Players can get hurt and baskets can become unplayable, so please reinforce this with coaches and players alike.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. posted a similar statement from the Ohio HSAA.

Statements like these make it real easy to charge a technical foul for pregame dunking by a person who may not be on the team roster. Now do you also add the name to the book, to record the foul, and charge a technical foul for that?

[mi_ball]

As a fan/parent of a high school player, I'd be interested in hearing the definition of a dunk. Does the player have to touch the rim? Is it simply the act of throwing the ball down with force from above the rim? My son was warned during warmups for gently flipping the ball downward without touching the rim. I thought the spirit of the rule was to avoid damaging rims and "showing up" your opponents. No one has a problem if the ball is "dropped" into the basket from well above the rim. The distinction seems somewhat arbitrary to me.

For what it is worth, I found this message board last April and I have enjoyed learning more about the rules of the game. It has helped me immensely when watching the games.

I know our team has a manditory parent meeting each year. A 10 minute presentation about the "Myths" I have been reading lately on this board would really help reduce the "chatter" I hear at most games

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by mi_ball

Is it simply the act of throwing the ball down with force from above the rim?

4-16: Dunking or stuffing is the driving, forcing, pushing or attempting to force a ball
through the basket with the hand(s).

A "flip downward" sounds like a push. A ball "dropped" into the basket doesn't sound like a push, it sounds like gravity is doing all the work.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by mi_ball

As a fan/parent of a high school player, I'd be interested in hearing the definition of a dunk. ... The distinction seems somewhat arbitrary to me.

Arbitrary as it may seem, it is very easy for a player to avoid the situation all together. So many like to push it all the way to the edge, seeing how close they can get without the officials doing anything. If they want to guarantee that will not get called for it, they can stick to layups....don't give the referee a decision to make.

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by camron rust

arbitrary as it may seem, it is very easy for a player to avoid the situation all together. So many like to push it all the way to the edge, seeing how close they can get without the officials doing anything. If they want to guarantee that will not get called for it, they can stick to layups....don't give the referee a decision to make.

+1

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Arbitrary as it may seem, it is very easy for a player to avoid the situation all together. So many like to push it all the way to the edge, seeing how close they can get without the officials doing anything. If they want to guarantee that will not get called for it, they can stick to layups....don't give the referee a decision to make.

+1

20 minutes out of their lives when they're not allowed to dunk, and all they can do is seek loopholes...

[eyezen]

Originally Posted by mbyron

+1

20 minutes out of their lives when their kids are not allowed to dunk, and all they can do is seek loopholes...

Ftfy

[Adam]

To answer the question, no, the definition of a dunk does not mention the rim.

[mi_ball]

Thanks. I don't want to give the impression that I think they should dunk in warm ups or even push the envelope. This happened last year when he was a freshman and I was curious more than anything. I realize that as officials you deal with over zealous parents on a regular basis but I would hope you are not so jaded that it is your first thought when someone asks a simple question.

I know that you know there are a lot of good kids out there. My son's varsity team had the highest grade point average in the state last year and I am a lot more proud of that than I am my son's ability (and height) that allows him to dunk a basketball.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I am going to apologize in advance for the length of this post but hope that everybody will give it a thoughtful read through. I should remind our newer members of the Forum that this thread is not the first time that this situation has been discussed; I am pretty sure that within the last ten (10) years it has been discussed here.

We can be presented with two different scenarios: 1) Pregame dunk in the JV game by a Varsity player, and 2) pregame dunk in the VAR game by a jr. varsity player.


Let me first state upfront that the previously mentioned "The OHSAA Rebounder's Report" is a publication of the OhioHSAA edited by Jerry Snodgrass, and Assistant Commissioner of the OhioHSAA. The article in question was from Issue #4, January 18, 2012. I will quote the article in its entirety:

"Varsity Players ‘warming up’ with JV Players at Pre-Game & Halftime? Consider this….
It happens everywhere more and more. Varsity players get out and warm-up with JV players. But consider this; when they do so, there is no distinguishing between a JV player and a varsity player. If the officials are on the floor, they have jurisdiction. So when that Varsity player wants to demonstrate his jumping ability and dunk….it is a “T” just like any other time. Might ‘seem’ farfetched at first, but nearly EVERY coach agrees the integrity of the game needs to be protected. It starts with simple enforcement of regular adopted game rules."

Normally, I would state that this article has standing only in the jurisdiciton of the OhioHSAA. But, because Henry Zaborniak, Jr., Assistant Commissioner of the OhioHSAA, is the current Chairman of the NFHS Basketball Rules Committee, the ruling stated in this article, no doubt, has Hank's support; meaning: "When E.F. Hutton speaks, people listen." Yes, I know, it is an old one that only we "bald old geezers" would recognize; even MTD, Jr., said that I was showing my age.


Let us discuss Situation (1) first, because it is the most likely scenario:

We all know that many times, especially in states like Ohio, that allow players to play in both the JV and VAR games (and even the FR game for FR, JV, VAR trippleheaders), that not all of the players warming up will be wearing identical uniforms and warmups; as long as everybody for a team is wearing the same color jersery is good enough to meet the uniform rules requirments (assuming that the individual jersey are otherwise legal).

Therefore, it is logicial to assume that all of the players who are warming up are members of the JV team. It is not part of the duties of the Game Officials to poll the players as to who is a JV player and who is VAR player who is just running through the warmup line. It is the responsiblity of the HC to manage his team and to know who is warming up and who is not warming up.

Without going into the history of the Dead Ball dunking rule, the rule was adopted as a safety rule. For those who want to research this further please do (please look up Daryl Dawkins, ), but in the meantime take my word for it. Therefore, it would be well within the rules to penalize a VAR player for being in JV warmup line for dunking the ball.

NFHS R10-S4 (Bench Technical)-A1i states: "Bench personnel, including the head coach, shall not commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct such as grasping either basket except to prevent injury; dunking or stuffing, or attempting to dunk or stuff a dead ball."

The penalty for the situation being discussed is a DTF charged to the Dunker and an ITF chargerd to the Dunker's HC.

My position has always been the same as Camron's and that this is apply NFHS R10-S4-Ai.

The real question to be asked in our situation is this: If the Dunk occured after the Ten Minute Mark, should an Administrative TF charged to the Team for adding a Player to the Roster. One part of me (the evil trouble maker part, ) says yes, while the other part of me (the one that has mellowed over the years, ) says treat the Dunker as a substitute in uniform that the HC has told to be ready to play in casde of an emergency and if that emergency happens he will then add his name to the roster and take the TF. I take the latter position.

I have said my piece. Have at it boys and girls.

MTD, Sr.

While researching the Lack of Sufficient Action Rule (old rule question ( before 1980 )) I found a Play in the 1971-72 NBCUSC Casebook and it directly addresses the play being discussed.

Please keep in mind that the rule regarding the submission of rosters and starters was different: Roster (10 minutes before the start of the game) and Starters (3 minutes before the start of the game). And the Game Officials jurisdiction started 30 minutes before the start of the game for both boys'/girls' high school and men's college (it still is 30 minutes for men's college).

Casebook PLAY 409D: Twenty minutes prior to game startingt time, during the pre-game warm-up, several squad members of team A each dunk once with the officials, as well as the coach, as witnesses. When the coach submits his squad list to the scorer he deliberately omits the names of the violators. RULING: Even though the offenders' names are not included on the squad list, team A is assessed a technical foul for each act of dunking and the game starts with team B attempting the free throws. Anyone who participates in the pre-game warm-up is part of the squad, regardless of whether his name apperars on the squad list (R10-S6j).

1971-72 NBCUSC R10-S6j is now NFHS R10-S3-A3 and NCAA Men's R10-S6-A1e.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. To my knowledge this Casebook Play has never been superceded by another one in either the NFHS Casebook or NCAA Men's Casebook and Approved Rulings.

P.P.S. This Casebook Play still only gets us halfway home. When it was added to the Casebook the TF was charged only to the team; it did not count toward the offender's five PFs and TFs; it did not count toward a team's foul total in a half; and DTF and IDTF charged to HCs did not exist yet.

I do have one problem with CB 409D, as it would have been applied in 1971-72, and that is, the HC could then add those players to the Scorebook later in the game and his team would be charged a TF for each new name added to the Scorebook, which begs the question: When we add each player's name into the Scorebook, do we record that each player already has a TF for his pre-game dunk? I would say yes.

CB 409D is silent as to whether the dunkers' names should be added to the Team Roster at the Ten Minute Mark. I interpret this silence to mean that the dunker's names are to be added to the Team Roster at the Ten Minute Mark.

Therefore, to apply CB 409D to our current play, we would charge the team with a TF for the player's dunk, charge the HC with an IDTF, and if the HC wants to add the player's name to the Scorebook later in the game I would record a TF with the player's name for the pregame dunk.

Therefore, to apply CB 409D to our current play, we would charge A1 (the dunker) with a DTF which would count toward Team A's seven and ten fouls for the first half, and Team A's HC is charged with a IDTF because of A1's DTF. And, A1's name should be added to Team A's Team Roster.

P.P.P.S. I have rewritten the last two paragraphs in P.P.S. to blue.