Discussed in an association meeting last night...

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I'm curious as to why this would make a difference.

Visualization, mostly. You mentioned before, Bob, the one area of the floor where both could get a good look at the shooter. Otherwise, wouldn't we have a simple case of ball watching?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Visualization, mostly. You mentioned before, Bob, the one area of the floor where both could get a good look at the shooter. Otherwise, wouldn't we have a simple case of ball watching?

Not necessarily.

[tref]

Sneaking a peak on shot attempts to assist the crew is far different than ball watching.

[jeschmit]

Originally Posted by tref

Sneaking a peak on shot attempts to assist the crew is far different than ball watching.

Exactly. I was told, "Don't be a ball watcher, but always know the status of the ball."

This means that if a shot goes up, I'm doing everything in my power to get an angle as to where the shot went up and if it is a 3- or 2-pointer if its right near the 3-point arc. Of course, I can't see them all, especially if I have something that needs my attention right in front of me...

[7IronRef]

In this scenario, what is the most important thing(s) to get correct?

1) Know if the clock started
2) Determine if shot was 2 or 3
3) Was shot released before the expiration of time

If the crew needs to have 2 people on the ball, then so be it. That is what everyone else is watching and will be posting on youtube

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jeschmit

Exactly. I was told, "Don't be a ball watcher, but always know the status of the ball."

This means that if a shot goes up, I'm doing everything in my power to get an angle as to where the shot went up and if it is a 3- or 2-pointer if its right near the 3-point arc. Of course, I can't see them all, especially if I have something that needs my attention right in front of me...

Most times, if I'm lead in two-man and the shot goes up anywhere but my area, I don't know if it's a 2 or 3. The two exceptions I can think of; transition plays and end-of-quarter shots where nothing else is going to matter.

[tref]

So basically your partner better get it & get it right?

Sneaking a peak doesnt take very long to do, 2 or 3 whistle system. Get a look at those feet & get back to your matchups.

The first time your partner marks an attempted 3 in the 1st half & the defensive teams coach goes off on you, "he's on the line!!" And you cant provide any help, I think you'll change your thought process on assisting with shots.

They hired a crew of 2 & if he dont look good, I dont look good...

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tref

So basically your partner better get it & get it right?

Sneaking a peak doesnt take very long to do, 2 or 3 whistle system. Get a look at those feet & get back to your matchups.

The first time your partner marks an attempted 3 in the 1st half & the defensive teams coach goes off on you, "he's on the line!!" And you cant provide any help, I think you'll change your thought process on assisting with shots.

They hired a crew of 2 & if he dont look good, I dont look good...

We can't sneak a peak every time. And a coach working me by saying "his foot was on the line" is not the reason to change how you are officiating. Why would you trust the coach's rantings over your partner's judgement?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by badnewsref

we can't sneak a peak every time. And a coach working me by saying "his foot was on the line" is not the reason to change how you are officiating. Why would you trust the coach's rantings over your partner's judgement?

+1

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by tref

Sneaking a peak doesnt take very long to do, 2 or 3 whistle system. Get a look at those feet & get back to your matchups.

The first time your partner marks an attempted 3 in the 1st half & the defensive teams coach goes off on you, "he's on the line!!" And you cant provide any help, I think you'll change your thought process on assisting with shots.

That's ridiculous. Does this pertain to all calls or just the 3-point line? Should I also make sure I double-check my partner's OOB lines? I can't get a good look at all 3-point shots - and I'm definitely not going to be sneaking a peak if I'm busy looking at my primary and other players. I have to trust my partner to do their job as much as they need to trust me to do mine.

[tref]

I guess it could be "ridiculous" depending on the level one currently works & the quality of camps they attend. Many officials who dont camp anymore or just attend local HS camps (giving out last decades information) have this thought process.

Nobody said every 3 point attempt...

The correct point value is far more important than an OOB call

99s are good PCA guys, Rs know whats going on in the GAME!

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Smitty

That's ridiculous. Does this pertain to all calls or just the 3-point line? Should I also make sure I double-check my partner's OOB lines? I can't get a good look at all 3-point shots - and I'm definitely not going to be sneaking a peak if I'm busy looking at my primary and other players. I have to trust my partner to do their job as much as they need to trust me to do mine.

Darned right. If I'm the trail, I'm not going to be looking at a 3 in the opposite corner *unless* it's a shot at the buzzer. I look there and who's getting the two-handed shove that frees up rebounding space?

Borderline 3's right near the division of responsibilities? Of course. I'm noting what I see and if I need to get in, I will. I've only had one partner mark a 3 this year and it was clear to me that the player had a foot on the line. Fortunately, the kid missed the shot.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

So basically your partner better get it & get it right?

Sneaking a peak doesnt take very long to do, 2 or 3 whistle system. Get a look at those feet & get back to your matchups.

The first time your partner marks an attempted 3 in the 1st half & the defensive teams coach goes off on you, "he's on the line!!" And you cant provide any help, I think you'll change your thought process on assisting with shots.

They hired a crew of 2 & if he dont look good, I dont look good...

Was this to me? If so, my response is that in 2 man, as lead, I've got enough to worry about on 99% of the shots in his 3 pt primary (not talking about the plays that are close to my primary) that I'm not going to be able to get a peak. I have to trust my partner on this one. If I can't trust him on a 3 point shot, there are going to be some big issues.

I don't allow coaches to go off on me like this, either. Do you start watching for travels in your partner's primary just because a defensive coach went off on you for missing one?

[tref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I've attended some very high quality camps and I still don't peek at a whole bunch of possible 3's taken outside of my PCA. I know which types of situations may need my help and which don't.

I agree, you worded it better. Not every situation & depending on your crew, maybe not at all.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

And I think maybe you should lose this "99" reference you use frequently. Kind of insulting, demeaning, and arrogant to official who don't agree with everyone of your philosophies.

Based on your posting history I surmise you are being exposed to a lot of pro philosophy (NBA/D-League/semi-pros). But the philosophies and teachings for those leagues don't always translate to college and high school ball.

Just MHO.

Okay, even though I still get assigned as U2 on games thats my last time using 99 here.
But these arent MY philosophies, to be honest the guys I learn from dont like philosophies they say to stay away from them & call the game by the book.

Are there differences in rules, court coverage & approved signals? Yes but as long as the rim is 10' & the FT line is 15' & there are boundary lines & there are 5 players on each team at each level... Basketball is Basketball man!

I see nothing wrong with having the mindset of the best to do it & applying practices at the level one currently works.

Originally Posted by Welpe

For what it's worth, one of the most highly regarded camps in this area is high school oriented I don't know if that necessarily speaks to the quality of the ball here but you are a nobody in the chapter until you've gone to one of these camps.

Yeah, we have those too
And once is suffice... no video, no can do! If they choose not to use me, trust, someone else will.

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I filled in with a guy I never met last year. His eyes never left the ball. I caught this on the first halfcourt set. I found myself working off-ball even when the ball was in my primary. I was very uncomfortable all night..

Oh okay, so others see it too! Thats all Im saying it depends on who you're with. It doesnt take many trips up & down to see what you need to do to assist a particular crew in being the most successful team of the 3.

Originally Posted by RichMSN

It's why I'm happy that we have "regular" partners here and I work a large portion of my games with the same 2-3 people.

Lucky guy!!!

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Was this to me? If so, my response is that in 2 man, as lead, I've got enough to worry about on 99% of the shots in his 3 pt primary (not talking about the plays that are close to my primary) that I'm not going to be able to get a peak. I have to trust my partner on this one. If I can't trust him on a 3 point shot, there are going to be some big issues.

I hear ya Snaqs, its quite the challenge sometimes. But thats why we do what we do, right? I trust all my partners until they give me reason not to. Had 2 person 3 nights in a row, luckily all with quality guys! So in these cases I didnt have to sneak-a-peak often. Like most of what we do, it all depends.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I don't allow coaches to go off on me like this, either. Do you start watching for travels in your partner's primary just because a defensive coach went off on you for missing one?

If I'm the T, I watch for travels in my partners primary (which is my secondary) throughout the contest. Believe it or not the post entry play is a 3 referee play.
L has illegal contact by offense & defense.
T has offensive feet.
C is prepared for the curl while watching the hook.

Yup all while officiating the players in their primary TOO. Multi-tasking is a great quality for officials to have.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by tref

They hired a crew of 2 & if he dont look good, I dont look good...

This also implies that by you "helping" your weak partner out by making lots of calls in his primary and overruling a few 3-pt shots, it makes you look good. I'm not sure anyone looks good when this happens, and I agree it does happen. There's only so much you can do when your partner is weak, but I would argue it's a very rare game when you can somehow make up for his/her weakness and also make the whole crew look good. Once you have to start reaching, you start missing stuff that's in your primary. It's often a mess.