Judging a "judgement" call

[rickman5]

It happened to me again a few days ago where one of my partners misapplied a very common knowledge rule.

Big cross-county rivalry game (same region) and we were in the Boys Varsity game. I'm trail table side and my partner is at the C. A1 drives to that basketbal and attempts a try. The try does not hit anything and he grabs his own rebound. Players look around expecting a whistle and my partner hits it and signals traveling. I figure, with a veteran official, he had him taking steps on the rebound so I don't say anything and we play on.

A couple trips down the court later he explains to the head coach why he called the travel. He tells the coach that the ball didn't touch rim. The coach knows the rule and immediately calls him out on it. My partner continues to plead his case that he cannot do that. We have some sort of switch so I'm now by the coach and he tells me the situation. I hate to throw my partner under the bus but I had to tell the coach he was right and we would talk about it during the next dead ball. Coach then gets on to me for letting him misapply the rule. I explained that I thought he had a travel after he caught the rebound.

Next dead ball I talk to my partner about the rule. He acted like it was the first time he had heard that. I had to show him the rule book at halftime. My question is when is it ok to come in and question a fellow official's "judgement" call (seemed to me he had a travel)? Would anyone have handled this situation any differently?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by rickman5

My question is when is it ok to come in and question a fellow official's "judgement" call (seemed to me he had a travel)? Would anyone have handled this situation any differently?

Same as the "hit the backboard so my partner called GT" thread of a couple of weeks ago. If you see it clearly, go in and ask "what do you have?" See if it leads to a rules discussion. OTherwise, let it go.

FWIW, I had a similar play a couple of days ago. Player did travel after retrieving the try. I called it -- and indicated specifically that it was after the recovery. Partner told me he was abouot to come in until I added the additional information.

[Adam]

Other than saying less to the coach, there's not much different I would do. I would have assumed the same thing you did.

[Rufus]

The only time I think about helping is if my partner asks for it and I have definitive knowledge/clear look.

If the coach asks you about a supposed botched call your partner made the response I use is "My partner had a good look and you can ask him next dead ball." I would try to avoid long discussions with them as it just gives them ammo to continue to complain. Definitely would not pass judgement on a partner's call (good or bad).

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Same as the "hit the backboard so my partner called GT" thread of a couple of weeks ago. If you see it clearly, go in and ask "what do you have?" See if it leads to a rules discussion. OTherwise, let it go.

This is excellent advice. Unfortunately, in the heat of the game and without more than a few seconds to "discuss" the rule interpretations, most officials who think they know the rule (but don't) will not listen to any kind of reasoning at all and you can't just stand there and argue. Then it's time to let it go and talk in the locker room.

As far as the OP throwing his partner under the bus, he ended up throwing himself under there as well. I would try and say something along the lines of "I'll talk to my partner about it when I have a chance" and not agree or disagree with what he called, would be sufficient to satisfy the coach and get out of there before you had to admit anyone kicked anything. But that's a tough scenario to find yourself in. That's one of those things that separates the men from the boys...

[rickman5]

Originally Posted by Rufus

The only time I think about helping is if my partner asks for it and I have definitive knowledge/clear look.

If the coach asks you about a supposed botched call your partner made the response I use is "My partner had a good look and you can ask him next dead ball." I would try to avoid long discussions with them as it just gives them ammo to continue to complain. Definitely would not pass judgement on a partner's call (good or bad).

Normally I would say something like that but when he flat out gets a rule wrong what else can you say?

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Other than saying less to the coach, there's not much different I would do. I would have assumed the same thing you did.

Agreed.

I likely would have made the same assumption you did and simply brought it up at half time.

I think telling the coach you will talk about it the next dead ball can lead to trouble.

I would say something along the lines of, "Coach, we'll discuss it at half time." Then at the beginning of the half maybe have your partner use his "I kicked it" card and explain that he misapplied the rule but won't make that mistake again.

[tref]

I agree with Bob, if the whistle came immediately upon the shooter making contact with ball again & I clearly saw the airball. That would lead me to believe my partner is misapplying a rule as opposed to a judgement call.

Originally Posted by Rufus

The only time I think about helping is if my partner asks for it and I have definitive knowledge/clear look.

No disrespect but I dislike working with the official of this mindset. I believe if one has definite knowledge/clear look there is no need to wait for a partner to ask for help. Why hoard info to yourself & then (usually) get in the lockerroom & throw it in their face

Originally Posted by rickman5

Normally I would say something like that but when he flat out gets a rule wrong what else can you say?

"We had an IW with Team A in control coaches, we're going to get this play right & administer a throw-in to Team A on the endline."

[deecee]

Originally Posted by rickman5

Normally I would say something like that but when he flat out gets a rule wrong what else can you say?

There's nothing you can say. I would have done the same thing you did. Your partner didn't know the rule. Misapplied said rule. Then tried to make up some story to the coach.

This could all have been avoided if he simply told the coach, "i might have screwed up and I would love another look at the play."

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by deecee

Your partner didn't know the rule. Misapplied said rule. Then tried to make up some story to the coach.

This could all have been avoided if he simply told the coach, "i might have screwed up and I would love another look at the play."

This is a contradiction. If someone really thinks he knows the rule (but doesn't), he's not going to think he's wrong. So the second part of your comment will never happen. That's why there was a mess. You have to know the rules. You just have to. (not you, just a general comment)

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by deecee

There's nothing you can say. I would have done the same thing you did.

I try to avoid giving a coach grenades to lob back at me or my crew.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Smitty

This is a contradiction. If someone really thinks he knows the rule (but doesn't), he's not going to think he's wrong. So the second part of your comment will never happen. That's why there was a mess. You have to know the rules. You just have to. (not you, just a general comment)

I thought about that after I hit submit. What I should have typed was he should have shut his yap rather than just guess.

And Welpe - His partner gave the coach a missile so there is nothing you, or I could say, that is worse than what the partner did.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Smitty

This is a contradiction. If someone really thinks he knows the rule (but doesn't), he's not going to think he's wrong. So the second part of your comment will never happen. That's why there was a mess. You have to know the rules. You just have to. (not you, just a general comment)

Right. But when the assigner asks (and they will), I'd rather say "I went in with the correct information" than "I thought he might have had something else."

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by deecee

And Welpe - His partner gave the coach a missile so there is nothing you, or I could say, that is worse than what the partner did.

Exactly so don't go giving him more ammunition by telling a coach your partner was wrong.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Exactly so don't go giving him more ammunition by telling a coach your partner was wrong.

The coach already knows he was wrong...What do you do? Play stupid as well?