Judging a "judgement" call

[rickman5]

It happened to me again a few days ago where one of my partners misapplied a very common knowledge rule.

Big cross-county rivalry game (same region) and we were in the Boys Varsity game. I'm trail table side and my partner is at the C. A1 drives to that basketbal and attempts a try. The try does not hit anything and he grabs his own rebound. Players look around expecting a whistle and my partner hits it and signals traveling. I figure, with a veteran official, he had him taking steps on the rebound so I don't say anything and we play on.

A couple trips down the court later he explains to the head coach why he called the travel. He tells the coach that the ball didn't touch rim. The coach knows the rule and immediately calls him out on it. My partner continues to plead his case that he cannot do that. We have some sort of switch so I'm now by the coach and he tells me the situation. I hate to throw my partner under the bus but I had to tell the coach he was right and we would talk about it during the next dead ball. Coach then gets on to me for letting him misapply the rule. I explained that I thought he had a travel after he caught the rebound.

Next dead ball I talk to my partner about the rule. He acted like it was the first time he had heard that. I had to show him the rule book at halftime. My question is when is it ok to come in and question a fellow official's "judgement" call (seemed to me he had a travel)? Would anyone have handled this situation any differently?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by rickman5

My question is when is it ok to come in and question a fellow official's "judgement" call (seemed to me he had a travel)? Would anyone have handled this situation any differently?

Same as the "hit the backboard so my partner called GT" thread of a couple of weeks ago. If you see it clearly, go in and ask "what do you have?" See if it leads to a rules discussion. OTherwise, let it go.

FWIW, I had a similar play a couple of days ago. Player did travel after retrieving the try. I called it -- and indicated specifically that it was after the recovery. Partner told me he was abouot to come in until I added the additional information.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Same as the "hit the backboard so my partner called GT" thread of a couple of weeks ago. If you see it clearly, go in and ask "what do you have?" See if it leads to a rules discussion. OTherwise, let it go.

This is excellent advice. Unfortunately, in the heat of the game and without more than a few seconds to "discuss" the rule interpretations, most officials who think they know the rule (but don't) will not listen to any kind of reasoning at all and you can't just stand there and argue. Then it's time to let it go and talk in the locker room.

As far as the OP throwing his partner under the bus, he ended up throwing himself under there as well. I would try and say something along the lines of "I'll talk to my partner about it when I have a chance" and not agree or disagree with what he called, would be sufficient to satisfy the coach and get out of there before you had to admit anyone kicked anything. But that's a tough scenario to find yourself in. That's one of those things that separates the men from the boys...

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Smitty

This is excellent advice. Unfortunately, in the heat of the game and without more than a few seconds to "discuss" the rule interpretations, most officials who think they know the rule (but don't) will not listen to any kind of reasoning at all and you can't just stand there and argue. Then it's time to let it go and talk in the locker room.

As far as the OP throwing his partner under the bus, he ended up throwing himself under there as well. I would try and say something along the lines of "I'll talk to my partner about it when I have a chance" and not agree or disagree with what he called, would be sufficient to satisfy the coach and get out of there before you had to admit anyone kicked anything. But that's a tough scenario to find yourself in. That's one of those things that separates the men from the boys...

I disagree somewhat. In a perfect world if you know a rule is being kicked, huddling with partners to go over the interp is better than getting it right at halftime. As you mentioned if your partner is adamant he is correct you can't have a hissy fit at half court. I've been guilty of a quick decision in past as to keep the game moving and as a crew we kicked a rule. Never again.

This is a tricky situation and you of course need to be careful as not to be judging calls as is mentioned in OP.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by fullor30

I disagree somewhat. In a perfect world if you know a rule is being kicked, huddling with partners to go over the interp is better than getting it right at halftime. As you mentioned if your partner is adamant he is correct you can't have a hissy fit at half court. I've been guilty of a quick decision in past as to keep the game moving and as a crew we kicked a rule. Never again.

This is a tricky situation and you of course need to be careful as not to be judging calls as is mentioned in OP.

I'm not sure what you disagreed with - you appear to have been agreeing with me.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Smitty

I'm not sure what you disagreed with - you appear to have been agreeing with me.

helps to read carefully

ha ha.............let's not discuss this now. How about at the half?

[Adam]

Other than saying less to the coach, there's not much different I would do. I would have assumed the same thing you did.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Other than saying less to the coach, there's not much different I would do. I would have assumed the same thing you did.

Agreed.

I likely would have made the same assumption you did and simply brought it up at half time.

I think telling the coach you will talk about it the next dead ball can lead to trouble.

I would say something along the lines of, "Coach, we'll discuss it at half time." Then at the beginning of the half maybe have your partner use his "I kicked it" card and explain that he misapplied the rule but won't make that mistake again.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

I would say something along the lines of, "Coach, we'll discuss it at half time." Then at the beginning of the half maybe have your partner use his "I kicked it" card and explain that he misapplied the rule but won't make that mistake again.

There it is.

This is the best response I can think of without throwing your partner under the bus. Let him do the mea culpa, once you've shown him the correct rule.

[Rufus]

The only time I think about helping is if my partner asks for it and I have definitive knowledge/clear look.

If the coach asks you about a supposed botched call your partner made the response I use is "My partner had a good look and you can ask him next dead ball." I would try to avoid long discussions with them as it just gives them ammo to continue to complain. Definitely would not pass judgement on a partner's call (good or bad).

[rickman5]

Originally Posted by Rufus

The only time I think about helping is if my partner asks for it and I have definitive knowledge/clear look.

If the coach asks you about a supposed botched call your partner made the response I use is "My partner had a good look and you can ask him next dead ball." I would try to avoid long discussions with them as it just gives them ammo to continue to complain. Definitely would not pass judgement on a partner's call (good or bad).

Normally I would say something like that but when he flat out gets a rule wrong what else can you say?

[tref]

I agree with Bob, if the whistle came immediately upon the shooter making contact with ball again & I clearly saw the airball. That would lead me to believe my partner is misapplying a rule as opposed to a judgement call.

Originally Posted by Rufus

The only time I think about helping is if my partner asks for it and I have definitive knowledge/clear look.

No disrespect but I dislike working with the official of this mindset. I believe if one has definite knowledge/clear look there is no need to wait for a partner to ask for help. Why hoard info to yourself & then (usually) get in the lockerroom & throw it in their face

Originally Posted by rickman5

Normally I would say something like that but when he flat out gets a rule wrong what else can you say?

"We had an IW with Team A in control coaches, we're going to get this play right & administer a throw-in to Team A on the endline."

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by tref

No disrespect but I dislike working with the official of this mindset. I believe if one has definite knowledge/clear look there is no need to wait for a partner to ask for help. Why hoard info to yourself & then (usually) get in the lockerroom & throw it in their face

None taken. There's a couple of reasons, though, why I approach it that way: (1) If I run in there immediately it undermines my partner's credibility individually and ours as a team (i.e., one has to go in an rescue the other one) and (2) if we've pre-gamed appropriately he knows he can come to me if he's unsure and ask if I had a different interpretation.

Even if I have what I think is a clear view of the play I'm still farther away from it than my partner in most cases and may not have seen the thing that caused him to make the call.

Finally, and we've never called together so you have no way to know this, but I wouldn't just throw it in there face. I would would bring it up, but more like a "what did you have on that call." This happened this weekend, actually, where I passed on a call and one of my partners made it (even though the play was in my primary). We discussed what each other saw quickly during a dead ball and moved on, no drama.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Rufus

None taken. There's a couple of reasons, though, why I approach it that way: (1) If I run in there immediately it undermines my partner's credibility individually and ours as a team (i.e., one has to go in an rescue the other one) .

Back in the 90s era I'd agree, in todays "get the call right" era, he undermined his own credibility by misapplying the rule, a basic 101 rule at that. All you're doing is putting the game first by providing help to your teammate. In order of importance, it is:
1. Game
2. Parnters
3. Ourselves

Originally Posted by Rufus

(2) if we've pre-gamed appropriately he knows he can come to me if he's unsure and ask if I had a different interpretation..

I agree, if thats what you pregammed. Personally, my pregame goes a bit different. "If I come in to provide information it is for the good of the GAME & not personal. There is no need to make our discussion longer by asking me, are you sure, because I am not coming in unless I am 110%."

Originally Posted by Rufus

Finally, and we've never called together so you have no way to know this, but I wouldn't just throw it in there face. I would would bring it up, but more like a "what did you have on that call." This happened this weekend, actually, where I passed on a call and one of my partners made it (even though the play was in my primary). We discussed what each other saw quickly during a dead ball and moved on, no drama.

I didnt mean to imply that you did, but I have seen this act several times. It generally starts out with "what did you see." Then it goes to "well I saw it all the way & the ball never hit the rim, you called the travel before he could move so I know he didn travel, etc, etc."

I'm like, well why didnt you help him if you had definite knowledge?!?!
Some guys enjoy watching others make mistakes even if they are on the crew (which makes the entire crew look bad)
They are hiring crews of 3 not 3 individuals like back in the day.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by rickman5

Normally I would say something like that but when he flat out gets a rule wrong what else can you say?

There's nothing you can say. I would have done the same thing you did. Your partner didn't know the rule. Misapplied said rule. Then tried to make up some story to the coach.

This could all have been avoided if he simply told the coach, "i might have screwed up and I would love another look at the play."