Judging a "judgement" call

[tref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Right. But when the assigner asks (and they will), I'd rather say "I went in with the correct information" than "I thought he might have had something else."

The guys I work for are taking assignments when the bolded words come out your mouth.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by tref

the guys i work for are taking assignments when the bolded words come out your mouth.

+1

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Smitty

This is a contradiction. If someone really thinks he knows the rule (but doesn't), he's not going to think he's wrong. So the second part of your comment will never happen. That's why there was a mess. You have to know the rules. You just have to. (not you, just a general comment)

That happens more than people realize. I have had to pull out my rulebook so they believe me when it comes to the rule. I almost always have a debate with someone during a tournament and we have to prove to someone what the rule actually says. So that is why if someone screws up a rule, unless I am 1000 percent sure I would almost never come in to change it. I might talk to them afterwards, but I would not change something they think they got right.

Peace

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by tref

No disrespect but I dislike working with the official of this mindset. I believe if one has definite knowledge/clear look there is no need to wait for a partner to ask for help. Why hoard info to yourself & then (usually) get in the lockerroom & throw it in their face

None taken. There's a couple of reasons, though, why I approach it that way: (1) If I run in there immediately it undermines my partner's credibility individually and ours as a team (i.e., one has to go in an rescue the other one) and (2) if we've pre-gamed appropriately he knows he can come to me if he's unsure and ask if I had a different interpretation.

Even if I have what I think is a clear view of the play I'm still farther away from it than my partner in most cases and may not have seen the thing that caused him to make the call.

Finally, and we've never called together so you have no way to know this, but I wouldn't just throw it in there face. I would would bring it up, but more like a "what did you have on that call." This happened this weekend, actually, where I passed on a call and one of my partners made it (even though the play was in my primary). We discussed what each other saw quickly during a dead ball and moved on, no drama.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by deecee

The coach already knows he was wrong...What do you do? Play stupid as well?

Maybe but I'm not going to agree with him! That's a good way to make a name for yourself amongst your fellow officials especially if you know enough about the call but don't go in and provide help to your partner to get it right.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That happens more than people realize. I have had to pull out my rulebook so they believe me when it comes to the rule. I almost always have a debate with someone during a tournament and we have to prove to someone what the rule actually says. So that is why if someone screws up a rule, unless I am 1000 percent sure I would almost never come in to change it. I might talk to them afterwards, but I would not change something they think they got right.

Peace

This happened to me in a scrimmage this year - the "R" for the scrimmage was someone who has been in the association for a while and I am relatively new to the association so he didn't know who I was at all - so I think he just assumed I was a new official. He was convinced that, during A1's throw-in from the endline, if B2 fouls A2 out near the division line, the ball is put in play using POI, therefore on the same spot on the endline. I argued with him and even pulled out the rulebook showing him you take the ball out of bounds at the spot of the foul. Everyone else at the scrimmage agreed with him (there were at least 3 other guys) because they figured he knew the rule. I was the only one arguing. It wasn't until another guy who was more experienced than both of us showed up, and agreed with me, that he believed it. And he still wasn't 100% convinced. It's just not easy to convince someone they are wrong when they know they are right.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Maybe but I'm not going to agree with him! That's a good way to make a name for yourself amongst your fellow officials especially if you know enough about the call but don't go in and provide help to your partner to get it right.

You are incorrect sir. And what name would I be making. Let's look at the facts.

1. Partner makes an incorrect traveling call, that I had assumed was NOT for the reason he made it. Basically I assumed he actually HAD a traveling.

2. Coach asks him and partner tells coach incorrect rule. Coach calls him and partner tells coach he is wrong.

3. Coach asks me rules question. Coach is right on the rule. I agree with the coach. Therefore partner is incorrect (I still DIDN'T know the exact reason for the traveling).

4. If coach tells me what partner says (and it happens to be incorrect and opposite of what I just agreed with) I would tell coach I will talk with partner but it's obvious he is incorrect.

So if this gives me a "bad" name with other officials. Then I would say they can go F themselves. You cannot be wrong in life and NOT own up to it AND blame someone else for your mistake.

Your partner did all the damage he/she could. Playing dumb shows no integrity on your part. The right thing to do is say, "Yup coach you are right and I will talk with my partner." First chance I get I would discuss this. Hopefully he's receptive and he acknowledges his mistake and owns up and apologizes to the coach at some point for the screw up. To me that's the right thing to do.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

I would say something along the lines of, "Coach, we'll discuss it at half time." Then at the beginning of the half maybe have your partner use his "I kicked it" card and explain that he misapplied the rule but won't make that mistake again.

There it is.

This is the best response I can think of without throwing your partner under the bus. Let him do the mea culpa, once you've shown him the correct rule.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by deecee

You are incorrect sir.

Well that's your opinion and I think yours is incorrect.

4. If coach tells me what partner says (and it happens to be incorrect and opposite of what I just agreed with) I would tell coach I will talk with partner but it's obvious he is incorrect.

Here's where you start running into trouble when you start telling the coach your partner is wrong. What do you gain by that? That's throwing your partner under the bus and is completely unecessary.

So if this gives me a "bad" name with other officials. Then I would say they can go F themselves.

Great attitude.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Rufus

None taken. There's a couple of reasons, though, why I approach it that way: (1) If I run in there immediately it undermines my partner's credibility individually and ours as a team (i.e., one has to go in an rescue the other one) .

Back in the 90s era I'd agree, in todays "get the call right" era, he undermined his own credibility by misapplying the rule, a basic 101 rule at that. All you're doing is putting the game first by providing help to your teammate. In order of importance, it is:
1. Game
2. Parnters
3. Ourselves

Originally Posted by Rufus

(2) if we've pre-gamed appropriately he knows he can come to me if he's unsure and ask if I had a different interpretation..

I agree, if thats what you pregammed. Personally, my pregame goes a bit different. "If I come in to provide information it is for the good of the GAME & not personal. There is no need to make our discussion longer by asking me, are you sure, because I am not coming in unless I am 110%."

Originally Posted by Rufus

Finally, and we've never called together so you have no way to know this, but I wouldn't just throw it in there face. I would would bring it up, but more like a "what did you have on that call." This happened this weekend, actually, where I passed on a call and one of my partners made it (even though the play was in my primary). We discussed what each other saw quickly during a dead ball and moved on, no drama.

I didnt mean to imply that you did, but I have seen this act several times. It generally starts out with "what did you see." Then it goes to "well I saw it all the way & the ball never hit the rim, you called the travel before he could move so I know he didn travel, etc, etc."

I'm like, well why didnt you help him if you had definite knowledge?!?!
Some guys enjoy watching others make mistakes even if they are on the crew (which makes the entire crew look bad)
They are hiring crews of 3 not 3 individuals like back in the day.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by deecee

The coach already knows he was wrong...What do you do? Play stupid as well?

No, you refuse to play. Tough spot, but there's no reason to acknowledge it (your partner's admission) since you really don't know if the coach is playing you or not. Even if you heard your partner say it, just tell the coach you aren't going discuss a call you didn't make.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

The guys I work for are taking assignments when the bolded words come out your mouth.

Just to clarify, are you expected to watch your area and your partners' areas to make sure they don't kick a rule?

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Smitty

This is excellent advice. Unfortunately, in the heat of the game and without more than a few seconds to "discuss" the rule interpretations, most officials who think they know the rule (but don't) will not listen to any kind of reasoning at all and you can't just stand there and argue. Then it's time to let it go and talk in the locker room.

As far as the OP throwing his partner under the bus, he ended up throwing himself under there as well. I would try and say something along the lines of "I'll talk to my partner about it when I have a chance" and not agree or disagree with what he called, would be sufficient to satisfy the coach and get out of there before you had to admit anyone kicked anything. But that's a tough scenario to find yourself in. That's one of those things that separates the men from the boys...

I disagree somewhat. In a perfect world if you know a rule is being kicked, huddling with partners to go over the interp is better than getting it right at halftime. As you mentioned if your partner is adamant he is correct you can't have a hissy fit at half court. I've been guilty of a quick decision in past as to keep the game moving and as a crew we kicked a rule. Never again.

This is a tricky situation and you of course need to be careful as not to be judging calls as is mentioned in OP.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by fullor30

I disagree somewhat. In a perfect world if you know a rule is being kicked, huddling with partners to go over the interp is better than getting it right at halftime. As you mentioned if your partner is adamant he is correct you can't have a hissy fit at half court. I've been guilty of a quick decision in past as to keep the game moving and as a crew we kicked a rule. Never again.

This is a tricky situation and you of course need to be careful as not to be judging calls as is mentioned in OP.

I'm not sure what you disagreed with - you appear to have been agreeing with me.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Just to clarify, are you expected to watch your area and your partners' areas to make sure they don't kick a rule?

Negative. We are supposed to referee our 3rd of the court while seeing as many of the other players as possible, as we are listening to the coaches for timeouts, checking the clock after each whistle & taking a peak at the table for subs.

When a play/shot goes toward the basket, there isn't anything wrong with 3 offcials knowing where the ball is. Players, partner & ball, right?
Its tough to flex or back out of one without knowing where the ball is.

As we start talking about the higher levels, its even encouraged to sneak-a-peak on 3 point trys out of your area. Yes, to help our partners!

Hopefully by John Adams adopting some NBA principles it will trickle down to HS in another decade. Because HS is behind the times... I am just now starting to hear RSBQ & SDF at this level. When I got up on it 4 or 5 years ago, they were saying thats NBA talk