Oops...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by asdf

looks to me like he got in position to dunk a potential miss, then busted his butt to get back on defense...

Yep, I didn't say he was motionless. Only unguarded and uninvolved in the actual play, the way it actually happened. Had he gotten the rebound that never happened, it would be a different story.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Yep, I didn't say he was motionless. Only unguarded and uninvolved in the actual play, the way it actually happened. Had he gotten the rebound that never happened, it would be a different story.

It almost seems like the player realizes something isn't right and then just kind of stands there wondering what to do...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Loudwhistle2

Help me out here. If I see 6 on the floor before I give the thrower the ball, then I don't call the technical. Tell coach 6 on the floor. Problem fixed. If the ball is live (thrower has the ball) I do call the technical. Is this correct?

Rule 10-1-6: A team shall not: Have more than five team members participating simultaneously. If discovered while being violated.

Here’s the only casebook play involving more than five team members participating simultaneously: 10.1.6 Situation: With Team A leading 51 to 50, a held ball is called. A6 properly reports and enters the game. Time is then called by Team A. The clock shows two seconds remaining in the game. After play is resumed by a throw-in, the officials: (a) recognize that A has six players competing, but cannot get the clock stopped; or (b) do not notice Team A has six players on the court. Following the throw-in, time expires. Team B now reports to the officials that Team A had six players on the court. RULING: In (a), since one of the officials had knowledge that Team A had six players participating simultaneously and this was detected prior to time expiring, a technical foul is assessed against Team A. In (b), since it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.

Here’s my problem. I wish that the NFHS was more definitive about what "participating" means, as well as what "while being violated" means. If there are six team members participating, does it matter whether, or not, the ball is dead, live, clock running, clock not running, or if there is, or isn't, a timeout (not an intermission)? What defines whether, or not, a player is participating? Does it have to be during a live ball, clock running, situation? Can it be during a live ball, clock stopped situation, i.e., ball at disposal of free throw shooter? Can it be during a dead ball, clock running situation, i.e. dead ball immediately after a made field goal? How about during a dead ball, clock stopped situation, i.e during a timeout?

Here are some situations that are confusing me:

A) Head coach of Team B requests, and is granted, a timeout, at which point he immediately complains to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. The sole purpose of his timeout is to call attention to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. Officials, who have been unaware that six team members have been participating up until that point, count six Team A members on the court before they head into their timeout huddle. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call? Please note that in 10.1.6 SITUATION (b) (above) the officials were not aware of the additional player until after time expires, which, to me, means the same as an intermission, when all team members are bench personnel. The situation that I have described here in not during an intermission, but is during a timeout.

B) Team B head coach yells to nearest official that there are six Team A players participating. Official sounds whistle to stop the action to count the players and discovers that there are six Team A team members on the court during this dead ball, clock stopped, situation. What's the call?

C) Team A has six team members participating, which goes unobserved by the officials. Official calls a travel violation on Team A. There are no substitutions after the whistle. Before administering the throw in, officials observe that Team A has six team members participating. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

D) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. Before bouncing the ball to the free thrower for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

E) The last Team A free throw attempt is successful. The clock hasn't started. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

F) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. After bouncing the ball to the free thrower, and with the ball at the free thrower's disposal for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is live, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

G) Team A scores a field goal. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is running. What’s the call?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Here’s my problem. I wish that the NFHS was more definitive about what "participating" means, as well as what "while being violated" means.

I was tempted to just link to my own post in another thread, but hey, why not just post the pic?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I was tempted to just link to my own post in another thread, but hey, why not just post the pic?

Loudwhistle2 was asking for help. Well, so am I. So please help.

It is my contention that once six players get into the game, it's not as cut and dry as most people would assume to charge the technical foul. There's no defined time limit, like a correctable error, but there are limits. That's why it's imperative to do some preventative officiating to keep this from happening in the first place.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

But hey, why not just post the pic?

Hey. That's my line.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Rule 10-1-6: A team shall not: Have more than five team members participating simultaneously. If discovered while being violated.





A) Head coach of Team B requests, and is granted, a timeout, at which point he immediately complains to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. The sole purpose of his timeout is to call attention to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. Officials, who have been unaware that six team members have been participating up until that point, count six Team A members on the court before they head into their timeout huddle. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call? Please note that in 10.1.6 SITUATION (b) (above) the officials were not aware of the additional player until after time expires, which, to me, means the same as an intermission, when all team members are bench personnel. The situation that I have described here in not during an intermission, but is during a timeout.

B) Team B head coach yells to nearest official that there are six Team A players participating. Official sounds whistle to stop the action to count the players and discovers that there are six Team A team members on the court during this dead ball, clock stopped, situation. What's the call?

C) Team A has six team members participating, which goes unobserved by the officials. Official calls a travel violation on Team A. There are no substitutions after the whistle. Before administering the throw in, officials observe that Team A has six team members participating. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

D) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. Before bouncing the ball to the free thrower for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

E) The last Team A free throw attempt is successful. The clock hasn't started. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

F) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. After bouncing the ball to the free thrower, and with the ball at the free thrower's disposal for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is live, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

G) Team A scores a field goal. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is running. What’s the call?

I've got a T in all of these, Billy.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I've got a T in all of these, Billy.

Thanks. Others may differ with you, including my local interpreter, who couldn't get any help from either the NFHS, nor IAABO, on these plays. It's like these plays were covered with smallpox viruses, or bubonic plague bacteria, and nobody wanted to touch them.

By the way? Are you up to date on your vaccinations?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Thanks. Others may differ with you, including my local interpreter, who couldn't get any help from either the NFHS, nor IAABO, on these plays. It's like these plays were covered with smallpox viruses, or bubonic plague bacteria, and nobody wanted to touch them.

By the way? Are you up to date on your vaccinations?

Until somebody tells me different, and they often do, go with something simple.
Who participates? Players. By definition, all 6 on the court are players in all these situations, are they not?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Until somebody tells me different, and they often do, go with something simple.
Who participates? Players. By definition, all 6 on the court are players in all these situations, are they not?

Nope, players are legally on the court, so you can never have more than five players from either team at any one time. You can have six team members participating.

BTW this happened in a Big East game about four years ago involving Georgetown. The opponent had six take the floor following a time-out with under 10 seconds remaining for an inbounds play. They scored a basket, then Georgetown beat the six-man press to score at the other end and force OT. Mike Kitts was the R and he owned up to it and told the conference to penalize him, but all three officials were suspended.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Nope, players are legally on the court, so you can never have more than five players from either team at any one time. You can have six team members participating.

If six are on the court, which one is illegal? Five is the legal number. If you have six, that's why it is a technical.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If six are on the court, which one is illegal? Five is the legal number. If you have six, that's why it is a technical.

That's why it's a team tech and not a sub tech.

[fortmoney]

I was at the game. (I'm a student at WKU)

I feel bad for the officials because I feel like they did a good job all night except for the end. I had no idea there were 6 guys on the floor until the end when everyone was taking about it. As a fan, its impossible to be mad because only one of the six touched the ball anyway.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by fortmoney

I was at the game. (I'm a student at WKU)

I feel bad for the officials because I feel like they did a good job all night except for the end. I had no idea there were 6 guys on the floor until the end when everyone was taking about it. As a fan, its impossible to be mad because only one of the six touched the ball anyway.

A rationale, and even empathetic-towards-the-officials, response from a fan. Thank you. My head just asploaded.

[fortmoney]

Originally Posted by Brad

A rationale, and even empathetic-towards-the-officials, response from a fan. Thank you. My head just asploaded.

I'm a second year official, LOL. I've been lurking this forum for a few Weeks and seeing this thread finally prompted me to join.

It is amazing how much calmer I am toward officials now that I am one. I usually spend more time watching them than the actual game, amazed by their demonstrative mechanics and strong calls

Thank you guys for all your help so far, just from reading all these threads